I'm looking for help from my fellow Reptile Room Forum friends. It was suggested in a previous thread that Nines may not be Egyptian. AND, that He may be a she. And that he or she may be older than I think. So, I am going post a few clues, and I hope that some of you can help me. Clue#1: History. My son Ethan was turning 8 years old in Feb. of 2007. He expressed interest in having a LIZARD for a pet. My wife Lori stated very simply that we were not going to own a lizard that required runs to the store for crickets. We had a friend whose son had a cricket eating lizard of some type. We thought, let's get Ethan the lizard, and lets get one that is low maintenance. Off to the big box store to buy ourselves a lizard. Two ignorant buyers, off to buy a present for a little boy's birthday. My wife knew next to nothing about lizards, and I knew less. As we looked over the big box store lizards, we were met by, what I like to call, the pimpley face ignorant big box store salesman/boy. We told him we were new at this, needed direction, and that we did not want a lizard that ate crickets. Pimple man immediately led us to a window of what would turn out to be Nines Rodriquez's enclosure. We looked in at the reptile, and were told that is was a uromastyx. Specifically, an male Egyptian Microlepsis. The didn't mean anything to me, but it looked cute. I could see that it was a little thin, but of good size, maybe 10 inches or so. We also wanted a lizard that liked to be held. We wanted our son to be able to hold it if he wanted. The sales man said this was lizard was a good choice. The lizard was tame, did not need the frequent trip for crickets, and as a bonus, didn't drink water. You just feed it lettuce and lentils, and the thing would be fine. The two ignorant buyers were liking this. We decided to go with the Uromastyx. It was $129. We then asked what we would need to house the Uro. The salesman suggested a glass tank, it was either 10-20 gallons I don't remember. He then suggested subtrate, so the Uro was off the glass bottom. He suggested that we put Crushed Walnut shells on half the tank bottom, and Calcium powder on the other half because the Uro needed calcium. He gave us a half bag of lentils, and showed us the lettuce they were using. It looked like iceberg and romaine. We then scooped up his next suggestions. A light with a 50w heat bulb, a plastic thermometer, a small hide, a electric plug in basking rock, and a cool looking plastic log. We were set. Nines went into a box, and we walked out of the big box store thinking that we were doing a great thing for a soon to be 8 year old boy. Two ignorant buyer, heading home with their first lizard. Clue #2: We're in trouble. We brought the Uro home and set him up in my son's room. He was slow moving after the cold ride home, but we poured in the calcium powder and walnut shells, plugged in the basking rock, and placed the hide and rock in the small tank. Nines immediately went into the hide. As I look back on it now, I truly believe that the pimple faced salesman was trying to UNLOAD the Uro on the first ignorant shopper that came along. Knowing what I know now, this Uro was thin. His spine was showing through his back, and he was lethargic. I then went downstairs and sat down at my computer. What I did next probably saved Nines life. Here we were, all calcium powdered, iceberg lettuced, and plug in heat rock ready. Me, being an Emergency Room nurse, had a nagging conflict with the whole NO WATER thing. I just didn't understand how something could not live without fuids. So, I hit the internet. Within 20 minutes I found this site, and started reading. From there I went to Douglas Dix's Deerfern Farms site. I read every word. After finishing with that site, I passed on what I had read to my wife. Being animal lovers, no matter what the species, we realized a few things. We were grossly ill prepared to actually take care of our thin little Uro. We were kicking ourselves for going into this blindly. We realized that some drastic changes were needed to take care of our new family member. AND, we wanted to go back and kick pimpleman's ass. Nines 2 weeks after coming home Clue #3: Changes. The next day life changed for Nines. Gone were the Calcium powder and Walnut shells, A Ginsu knife cut off the cord to the basking rock, and Nines greens were changed. Other things like a larger tank, Temperature control, lighting, and basic enclosure things changed drastically. With the help of some Emails to Douglas Dix, internet care sheets, and past threads on this site Nines somehow came out of his stupor and started eating. Over the next 2 months Nines started to look a little better. We continued to read, and communicate with others on how to improve life for our little Uro. Clue #4: Is Nines truly an Egyptian? Nines was doing much better. He began to put on weight. A year past, and he grew a few inches, shed, and took on beautiful coloring. He developed his own personality. He is quite entertaining. But, as I posted pictures of Nines on our forum, it was brought up that he may not be an Egyptian Microlepsis. I have taken care of the Uro for 2 years. He is thriving. he is a wonderful addition to our family. He listens to me as I talk to him, but he has yet to answer me though. I've accused him of being half monkey, the way that he runs and jumps and falls from his brick pavers. Damn if he not just a hoot. BUT, Uro_fan threw out a few valid points that must be considered. Bruno then followed with a link of Uromastyx Egyptian Microlepsis pictures that do not look anything like Nines. That leaves me with new things to think about. Uro_Fan Although photos can be deceiving and I am traveling and working off an older laptop with a small screen and rather poor resolution, the photos very much resemble that of a yellow phase female geyri. However, the length you give does not coincide with my speculation that this might be a female geyri. I am not certain if your measurement is an approximation or actual measurement so can you take an actual measurement (snout to tail tip) and try to be as accurate as possible? Rather than trying to align the uromastyx with a ruler, you might want to place the uromastyx on a large piece of paper or cardboard and just put a mark at each end (snout and tail tip) while keeping the tail as straight as possible. Then just go back and measure the distance between the two marks. Chances are, if this came from a large chain pet store- the history on the uromastyx was a bunch of bull. If this does end up being a geyri, it was likely a wild caught import and judging by size- an adult. Over 7000 geyri were imported in 2006 and they have been regularly appearing in pet stores over the last several years- most of the time mislabeled as maliensis. Kudos to you as regardless of what species this does turn out to be, the animal is looking very good. Ps- I will try to remember (this ability diminishes with age) to take another look at the photos on my computer when I return home from my trip. I am not on this website very often so if you do not hear back from me within a few days and are still interested in this topic; please send me a pm which will trigger an email reminding me of this thread. Clue # 5: How old is Nines? If Nines is not Egyptian, and is another type, then depending on his size, he may be older than previously thought. Uro_fan made me think for the first time. Is he an adult? That brings us to size. In the 'Uro picture' thread I stated that Nines was 15 inches. That measurement came from a past measurement, that was right around 14", and the fact that I thought he was Egyptian and still growing. I took him out today and measured him according to Uro_Fans suggested measurement technique. Nine is not 15". He is 14". He has grown approx 3 to 3 1/2" over the last 2 years. Now, is he still a juvie with more growth in front of him, or, has he hit his max? Clue #6: Is He a She? Uro_fan also threw this tid bit. Is my therapeutic listener of a monkey jumping Uro really a female??????? Sure I have learned a quite a bit about Uro's over the last two years, but I have been living under the assumption that my Uro was Egyptian. And, I have always thought Nines was a male. I know NotHING about trying to sex a Uro, and instead of trying to learn on my own, I am turning to my fellow Uro lovers to help me figure it out. In other words: Who and what is Nines Rodriguez?????
I will stick with my original suggestion on species and sex (female geyri) but I am curious to see that precise measurement I requested as fifteen inches would be extremely unlikely for a female geyri.
Uro_fan. I remeasured and Nines is inbetween 13 7/8 and 14. AS stated he/she is not 15. I'm beginning to swing over to your side on this one. It's like I've been living with what I thought was one thing, and now I get the rug pulled out from under me and I find out Nines is a different type and sex of Uro. I thank you for your input. In the end, I want to know the truth. Thanks for starting this conversation.
Uro_fan, if I've hit the 14" mark, is Nines an adult? Will the future growth occour in girth and not in length? Does my guesstimate of 2 1/2 years old make no sense? I have no confidence in the salemans knowledge of where Nines came from, or how old he is. Farm raised vs wild import Male vs. Female Your suggestion of a female Geyri looks spot on in the pictures. I am now believing that he/she is older than 2 1/2 years
I hate to do this , I've just "Googled" images of uromastyx geyri and it pulled up 669 images. Taking into account that photo's can be deceiving and every one will look different, due to lighting, camera etc. I am no "expert" on uro's being fairly new to them myself but having spent a lot of time looking at the pictures Googled, I would go along with Uro-fan's expert knowledge (I have great respect for her) and say you do have a uromastyx geyri. Whether it's male or female I have no idea. Kudos to you for everything you have done for the lil guy since you got him/her. It's age is difficult to pinpoint as obviously the "Pimpleman" was out to make a sale and had no idea what he was selling or anything about it regards age etc. Due to the poor conditions it was kept in prior to you taking it on, your guesstimate of 2½ years, I'm not saying it is, but it may be under estimated. I'm sorry I've added more, what's, if's, but's, into the equation but you are getting there regards species. This is my Egyptian, he's just 12 months old and is a touch over 11" long, as you can see the colour and markings are totally different to yours. Click on pic for full size
Sorry Nines, I missed the section of your last post that gave the updated measurement. For most species, yes. If this were an aegyptia, 14” would suggest an adolescent or young adult but even this is a little subjective as terms such as hatchling, juvenile, adolescent, young adult, and adult are not clearly defined so what I might label a young adult someone else might call an older adolescent. Again, this would depend on species. If this is a female geyri as I think that it is, I doubt very much you will see much further growth. I have had a couple male geyri that have reached 14- 14 ½ inches in length but I have yet to have a female of that length. I am not saying that it is impossible, just that 14” would be on the extreme end for length should this turn out to be a female geyri. Most of my females have been 12- 12.5" on average. As geyri tend to have a more slender body type when compared to species such as dispar and aegyptia, the girth shown in your photo is what I have observed on the wider end of the scale for female geyri. If this is a female geyri and you continue to see growth in girth, I would look into reevaluating the diet or a nest box. Geyri appear to have a slower growth rate than some of the other species that I have worked with so a 3 ½ inch growth rate in two years at this age/length would be fairly significant for this species. That said- I have taken a second look at the photos on my computer and the photos do still point to a female geyri even if the length and growth rate seem a bit excessive for what I have witnessed for female geyri. Again, anything is possible and there is no exact ‘norm’ so I am sticking with my guess on species and sex even though some of your data conflicts with my experience with this particular species. If you can secure a snout to vent and vent to tail length I would be interested in this as I am curious as to the tail to body ratio. I am also curious to know if you see much coloration and/or vermiculation on the abdomen. At the length/age of your uromastyx, female geyri will typically have a whitish abdomen with or without vermiculation or a light abdomen that has started to fill in with a grey pigment with or without vermiculations while the males will usually have significant color. Here are a couple photos for reference. The first photo is of an adult (gravid) female red geyri. Although the photo does not show much of the abdomen, the amount showing in the photo does represent the overall appearance of the abdomen. This particular female has very little vermiculation and a little red pigment (more on chest than abdomen). I no longer own this animal so I cannot provide a photo of the entire abdomen but this photo gives you an idea of the overall 'light' appearance of the neck and abdomen. This second photo shows the chest and abdomen of a 9.5” female yellow geyri. As you can see, the area is off white and the vermiculations are clearly visible. This third photo shows an 11.5” female yellow geyri. As you can see, the neck, chest, and abdomen has started to fill in with a grey pigment/shading and there is a little yellow pigment showing as well. For comparison with the above photo of the 11.5” female- here is the chest and abdomen of an 11.5” red male geyri. As you can see, the pigment and vermiculations are much more pronounced. I do not currently have a yellow male of this age/size for comparison with the photo of the female but the coloration would be similar- just yellow rather than red. As this male continues to age, the color will become more intense and the abdomen will take on a shiny/waxy appearance. Hopefully the above photos give you an idea of some of the differences you may see with the abdominal appearance of female geyri as well as a comparison of a female and male of the same length. As I previously mentioned, if you purchased the uromastyx in 2006 at 11” and this is a geyri as I think it is, it was a young adult or adult at the time and most likely a wild caught import. Be careful using Google images as a valid resource BB. There are a lot of mislabeled photos out there and you will often see U a nigriventris that are labeled as geyri and vice versa. Google is fine for fun and curiosity but when trying to identifying a species, I would stick to credible resources. You might be able to find these credible resources via Google but I would not simply trust looking at photos that you find under Google as many of these may be mislabeled. Color and markings can vary significantly with individual animals of the same species and this is especially true with younger animals. Here is an example of two of my young microlepis. As you can see, there are some slight pattern variations and some rather significant coloration differences. Although the photo does not show it very well, one animal has orange coloration while the other is more of a lemon yellow. The coloration is not close on these two animals and yet they are both U a microlepis I guess my point is that individual animals can vary quite a bit and I have seen quite a few animals of one species that resemble another species. Identification can be next to impossible in some of the younger animals and even difficult with adults with some species. As I own or have kept most species seen in the hobby, I have a little hands on experience with comparing the different physical characteristics between species so when I see a photo, I am considering the overall animal taking into consideration things like the head shape, tail shape, body shape, along with the coloration and markings. While the best way to indentify any animal is to use an identification key, some of the more simple characteristics such as a tail whorl count fall under the same parameters for species like geyri and aegyptia so asking a couple of the easier taxonomy questions over the internet typically will not suffice. I ran across your photos suggesting that the animal was a male microlepis and the photos reminded me of a female geyri so I was curious as to how you came to the conclusion that your uromastyx was a microlepis. Although I feel fairly comfortable suggesting this animal is a female geyri, I certainly cannot guarantee this based on a few photos- especially when some of the details such as the growth rate and length of the animal would be atypical for the species and sex I am suggesting. While there might be a few people out there that would swear their first born son on identifying an animal from a few photos, I tend to be more conservative when trying to identify an animal from photos so I leave you with my best guess on the sex and species of this animal. As previously mentioned, I do not frequent this forum so if you want something more definitive, contact me via email and I can work with you on trying to accurately identify this animal as this will involve more photos and a series of questions on physical characteristics.
Uro_fan Thank you for your time and effort. I really appreciate it. I have enjoyed this exercise on uromastyx, and the suspected answers to many of the questions and clues that I posted here. In the end, here is what I'll take away from this. Bear with me, I am trying to present some of this on a 9 year old level. My son turns 10 in February. He has now been the proud owner of Nines for 2 years. He has happily called him an Egyptian, as well as, a HE, during this time. I have come to this forum over the last 2 years and written about my male Egyptian for some time. I am not a Uro expert, and put too much faith in someone who represented that they were. My son has been following the progress of the two threads while you attempted to sort out both type and gender. Here are his conclusions. I know that you made a statement about not putting to much faith in pictures, due to the fact that some may be mislabeled. Even so, picture three of your female Geyri could swap places with Nines in a heartbeat. The tannish coloring, with yellow highlights and patterns, along with orange accents is spot on identical. The pale underbelly, with faint vermiculations is a match. My initial measurement 2 years ago, was with a moving Uro, and a tape measurer, so my intitial length may be slightly off. I am not sure. I've only measured him/her a couple of times. I also believe, that if I continued with the investigation, that there would be other specific signs that you are right. I most likely have a female Geyri. And, that Geyri is probably an adult (we'll use that term for lack of a better one), and that she might indeed have been wild caught. Here is what my son is comfortable with. He just looked at picture three, the one of the female Geyri, and said, "that looks just like Nines." He is comfortable not calling him an Egyptian. He actually has enjoyed the journey of taking Nines from Egyptian to suspected Geyri. Here comes the flip side though. He then asked my straight to my face. "Can we still call him a boy?" The kid is 9, and though intelligent, wants to hold on to that part of it. His sister has a female Teddy Bear hamster, and my son gets a kick out of saying that we have 3 girls and 3 boys in the house. What am I going to say to that? It's funny. I'm so convinced that I'm going to go down to my signiture and change it from male to female. But, at home, Nines will continue to go on as a boy, until my son decided he wants to change his/her gender. He loves the fact that when he has friends over, he gets to introduce Nines as a boy. That may change someday. As for being wild caught, vs. hatched in some maybe fictitious Texas Uro Farm, It's been 2 years, and Nines is both thriving, and entertaining. If you go back to the title of this thread, I think you have answered just WHAT Nines is, but I think I'll allow my son to answer Who Nines is. So, in the mean time, I'll continue to call him a boy at home, until my son makes the change, but now I can at least not mislead people whom might be wondering why Nines doesn't look like a Egyptian. Uro_fan I want to thank you again for the time and effort you put into this. Sincerely Rick, Ethan, and Nines
