Hello all. Okay, so this may seem like a very "beginner" question, but please don't think of me as such. I have done plenty of research on what one can feed feeders. What I want to know is what you personally feed yours. If you can tell me what feeders you are using and what they eat respectively, what you have tried feeding feeders in the past and have had the best experience with, and what your opinions are on commercial feeder diets versus fresh foods, that would be great. Hmm...sorry for the overabundance of the word "feed" and its variants. Thanks in advance!
I raise both mice (just a few) and rats. I generally feed them Harlan Teklad 18% (Native Earth 4018 is the retail name). Amazon has the best price for it, through Pet Foods Direct. It's a better price than the Pet Foods Direct web site. Otherwise, I've gotten Purina Lab Diet from a farm supply store not far from me. As far as fresh food goes, I will give them scraps sometimes. I'll also occasionally cut up vegetables when I cut them up for my Amazon Parrot. I usually don't though. It becomes too big a hassle and some foods are not good for them even though they'll eat them. I'd rather not have to manage it that much. They eat the pellet, and it's easy. Jeff
Hello Cammy, This is a great question, as the food that goes into your feeder insect essentially gets transferred to the herp that is eating it, so it's extremely important to provide the best possible "Gutload" for feeders. The first rule of thumb, no matter what you feed, is to feed an adequate amount to the feeder. There is little point going out there and buying a high quality gutload that is costly if you were to only feed the insects enough food to stay alive. You really want to have a constant source of both dry feed and moisture - which can be in the form of fresh fruits and veggies (more on this momentarily). If they have a constant food source, they will eat a lot more and will always have digested and 'undigested' material in their system that will benefit the herp. Some feeders can only eat certain things, so there is little we can do to increase their nutritional value via gutloading. For example: silkworms, goliath hornworms, butterworms, and even waxworms. Silkworms will only feed on mulberry leaves or special chow diet to thrive and grow...although thankfully mulberry is a relatively nutrient rich tree. Hornworms will also only eat special chow (as their native plants are toxic) and many other species of grub eat very little (if anything). Feeders that will readily accept a variety of types of gutload generally include crickets, locusts, cockroaches, mealworms, and superworms (zophobas). For these, it's best to provide a good staple dry food or dry combination, along with regular amounts of fruits, vegetables, and greens as a moisture source. I'll get to dry feed in just a minute, but avoid lettuce and anything harmful to the herp obviously when selecting your veggies. For example, its often best to avoid feeding excess iceberg lettuces, rhubarb, avocado, spinach, etc due to low nutrtional value, potential toxicity, and unusually high oxalic acids concentration that can bind calcium. Whether or not this is as much a factor going through the feeder first is debatable, but it never hurts to play it safe and feed quality greens that are known to be beneficial. http://www.beautifuldragons.com/Nutrition.html Mealworms and superworms cannot thrive in a very finely ground gutload diet.... where roaches and crickets will feed on dry food from a dish, superworms and mealworms live in and burrow within their substrate/gutload. If it is ground powder fine, they can actually suffocate themselves. As for a dry gutload diet for my roaches (I've ventured away from crickets as a primary feeder), I opt to provide a decent variety. This is primarily due to the fact that many species of roach are selective in their diet needs and will nibble on various things depending on what their body needs at a given time. They will readily accept about anything, but its been observed that they prefer grazing on various foods whereas crickets will eat nearly anything...including egg flats, carboard, and their own frass lol. I tend to feed a mix of tropical fish flakes, Quality dogfood or catfood, baby cereals, and chick starter (non medicated). Try to avoid foods with a high concentration of calcium as it's been linked to poor molts in insects, and avoid foods that have a high amount of copper and Dye (particularly Red). By quality dogfood and catfood, I mean the kind that lacks fillers within the first few ingrediants (corn, gluten, etc). Any grain type of diet should be a perfectly adequate food source though. You can also boost the benefits of the a gutload by adding things like bee pollen and spirulina algae to the mix... Keep in mind that some foods are better per feeder health and you need to find a median for the feeder to thrive and for the benefit of the herp. Silkworms need mulberry or chow, and roaches are thought to need a higher protein diet, so while a simple grain mix that contains a nominal amount of protein in it may be fine for crickets, a roach colony tends to do better with some dog/cat food and fish flakes in the diet that contain more protein. I apologize if this is unorganized or sporatic - I can certainly elaborate on specific feeder needs or specific herps needs further if you'd like. But feeding just about anything is going to be better than feeding nothing = )
Sorry jeffg, I guess I should have specified I was referring to feeder bugs and worms, haha. Jeffreh, that was a purely epic response...quick question. When you say: Do you mean they prefer to have variety overall, or that they prefer to have a variety of options to choose from at one time? For example, right now I feed one thing for a few days, then something else for a few days, and so on. Is it better to offer multiple types of food each day? Will they eat more if given choices? I currently have dubias if that makes any difference. Also, I've been considering picking up some dry dog food for them as I feel they aren't getting enough protein. This may sound stupid, but how do you feed it to roaches? Do you give them the whole pellets or do you crush them up? Weird question, I know. Thanks for all the help!
They will most certainly eat a single thing if provided - but after talking with some big time roach enthusiasts the general consensus seems to be that roaches are really quite 'smart' about what they eat based on their bodies needs. When i started to provide more variety, I noticed it more within my E. posticus and B. dubia colonies, but the Shelfordella (Blatta) lateralis and lobsters really just ate anything and everything in equal amounts lol. I typically just throw the kibble in there - I have a dish of the chick feed as a base diet and I'll toss fish food in a little pile on occasion and just throw the kibble in on top of that, even very small nymphs have the capacity to break down the largest of kibble (they are excellent decomposers in nature). Most people just grind all of the ingrediants up together or feed one thing and they maintain perfectly healthy colonies that reproduce just fine, but I have a strange fascination with my roaches and like to spoil them as much as possible LOL I will say, it's best to keep the food in a dish and any plant matter on egg flats or off of the bottom unless it will be eaten within a day or two. Blaptica dubia frass is actually quite sterile (most species are) and you can let it accumulate to a couple of inches before really needing to clean their bin. Problems with mold, etc will only arise if you get food in the frass and it gets damp. If you feed the food from a dish and offer adequate hiding places via egg flats, etc they will not need to be cleaned out for a long time. I have thousands upon thousands in a bin and changed them recently after about 8 months and I've heard of others keeping them for over a year without a need to change out the bin and clean up the frass. B. dubia are a great roach, and they are great reproducers for me. They do fine in crowded conditions, can tolerate a wide array of temps, and they generally are not picky. Another note on variety in roaches: they can be picky if given the opportunity based on their plant matter. I try to feed a good mix of greens, veggies, and fruits in rotation because they will start to get preferences if you feed the same thing over and over. Mine typically turn their noses up to pineapple for example lol Protein in a roaches' diet (why I noted "thought to need") is still somewhat misunderstood. In nature, they are decomposers that primarily feed on plant matter. It's known that higher protein can yield less wing biting, less cannibalism, and bigger roaches for some species, but a big thing with these guys is moisture. I keep a dish of water crystals available at all times and dry feed available at all times. I then provide plant matter 2-3 times per week as an additional source of moisture and nutrients. With roaches, if you leave em alone, give them plenty of food, drink, space, hiding, and heat they will take off = ) And btw: totally not a weird question at all! I can completely understand - I was always concerned about the little nymphs being able to feed on big chunks of food well but after observing them for awhile and being reassured by some roach collectors I felt a lot better about not grinding it up. It's what their made to do - although it you feel like crushing it up to help out a bit I dont see where they would mind = )
Thanks for all the great information! Today I picked up some stuff at work: two cans of good fish flakes (Omega One Veggie Flakes--37% protein with kelp and spirulina) and some Wellness dog treats to add to my mix. I was previously rotating between Orange Cube and an assortment of greens (collard, mustard, dandelion, turnip, etc.) with the occasional other fruits and veggies thrown in. I'm glad to be getting a little more variety in my feeders. On a side note, I'm glad I'm not the only one who finds their roaches interesting. They're actually kind of cute...I almost feel bad when my beardie eats them, lol.
Cammy, I think I saw your name pop up in chat once or twice briefly - swing on by occasionally as I'm in that quite frequently = ) we talk roaches a lot, and if you think the dubia are cute, take a look at Kyle's epic list: http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=200619 The herp world is so absorbed with only a few easily accesible feeder roaches that a lot of other species get overlooked. Those in the Eublaberus genus for example, my orange heads (E. posticus) are producing at a rate similar to dubia, but the nymphs are really....REALLY meaty and get much bigger than dubia nymphs and seem to have even less shell. Of course, there are also species that are for collectors and enthusiasts only due to their slower reproductive rate (like the peppered roach, A. tesselata for example). I really need to take picture comparisons of B. dubia, E. posticus, and B. discoidalis at different instars to show size comparison. Comparison of nutritional values shows there is little deviation between roach species, but all roaches have nearly double the protein content of crickets and typically have a much better meat to shell ratio and are very lean and low in fat. I prefer them as a feeder for these reasons in addition to their rediculess ease of care = ) little to no smell compared to just about any other feeder, no noise, no jumping, and effortless to keep. On another note - I tend to recommend water crystals over the orange cubes. It's not that the orange cubes are bad, but I really don't like fluker farms if that is where they were produced lol. Plus, you can create gallons of water gel using water crystals at the same price your likely spending on orange cubes. Totally fine to use I think, but if you want a cheaper option look into water crystals - they typically run for about $1 or less an ounce and one ounce will make about 1 gallon of water gel = )
Awwwww! I want to snuggle with a wittle domino roach.....I don't think I could feed them to anything, haha. :B I completely agree on the roaches; they're quiet, clean, don't escape, and my beardie loves them. They couldn't be easier to care for--I actually just have mine in critter keepers with a heat pad, and they are reproducing and everything. I'd love to see how those horseshoes do since it says they tolerate cooler temps than the dubias. (All of my stuff is in the basement, where it gets pretty cool.) And I definitely hear you on the Fluker's thing. However, I am very happy with the limited but smart ingredients in the orange cube (includes kelp, spriulina, carageenan [seaweed extract], and brewer's yeast) so it's like my guilty indulgence. Yes, I keep trying to get on chat but my computer is being stupid. -___-
Soooo.... I'm just now realizing that I know you personally = D and likely delivered you the dubia that you have! LOL! Welcome to the forums Ashley and I suppose Loki too of course
Thanks for all the information in this thread! I don't mean to butt in on the thread topic but I had a few questions... From this site Nutrition Advisory Group Insect Chart it says that cockroaches have 53.9% protein while crickets have 64.9%. I tend to trust them as a source as they seem to know what they are doing. It's not that big of a difference, and it can probably be chalked up to what the bugs are fed. Also, I'd like to know more about "meat to shell" ratios. What is that based on? Chitin? Roaches seem more "crunchy" to me, but maybe they've got more meat underneath their shells than crickets. I'm always curios as to where information comes from! Thanks for any replies, I tend to obsess over nutrition for my pets...
Hey there Spyral - totally understandlable, I'm the same way with my pets = ) Sample Moisture Protein Fat Fiber Ash B. Laterallis 63.63% 36.5% 5.31% 2.19% 1.95% B. Dubia 61.18% 35.6% 6.75% 3.25% 2.01% Meal worms 58.74% 21.0% 15.52% 2.01% 1.18% Crickets 71.96% 18.5% 6.26% 2.09% 1.29% G. Portentosa 64.09% 26.7% 5.05% 5.62% 1.37% B. lateralis (AKA Shelfordella laterlis, the Turkistan roach), B. dubia, and G. portentosa (Madagasgar Hissing Roach) are seen by this chart to yield relatively similar values. Granted, this information is relatively limited and only provides us with a basic insight into the crude yields of moisture, protein, fat, fiber, etc. I don't believe I've ever seen a cricket on any site have a protein composition greater than about 30% prior to this one you've listed - although diet can contribute very heavily to these values. These values came from http://www.doubleds.org/newfeederpg.html Also: http://bamboozoo.weebly.com/the-feeders.html I have a friend who has done a roach blog and set out to personally obtain nutritional analysis of B.dubia, I can't think of the site name off of the top of my head but his findings were very similar to those laid out here. I can probably dig up a couple of other sites by request as well. The meat: shell ratio is a good question here, and I think it really boils down to mass and the individual species. For example, lobster roaches and lats most certainly contain less shell than blaptica dubia and hissers (mature specimens at least). Roaches are generally pretty hefty, and while I agree that they can appear to have quite a bit of exoskeleton (B. dubia nymphs in particular) I think they have a surprising amount of "meat" mass within that many other feeders simply don't have. Take a cricket for example - while they are softer bodied, try squeezing one into a paste. The result is exoskeleton, stomach contents, moisture, and a relatively nominal amount of "meat" IMO. Do the same to an average sized roach nymph and you end up with a greater ratio of meat within. I can't honestly give a clear cut answer, but the general consesus seems to be that the meat:shell ratio for roaches is superior, and having handled (and consumed) a variety of feeders myself I'd have to agree that roaches are indeed composed of a good lump of meat. Crickets taste very grainy, mealworms are god-awful and the shell lingers like a kernal of popcorn, and roaches tend to have a grain like taste consumed within a mass of 'puss' which I would classify as the good stuff =P
Thanks for the reply, this is valuable feedback! I'm wondering if the difference in nutrition can be explained by the size of the digestive system in roaches and crickets as well as any difference in diets? If roaches have a larger gut, maybe that's why you get more ooze from them. Either way, it makes roaches more "substantial" as a feeder, the way that whole prey gives carnivores more nutrients from their gut content of semi-digested grass. Size also plays a part when you feed, a larger roach vs several smaller crickets will have less chitin, and less overall surface area to digest. Thank you for your dedication to the hobby - the "taste-test" gives a valuable insight into feeders!!!
We use turkestan roaches(red racers) and I feed them all kinds of stuff.We have chickens so I alway put a handful of layer pellets(high calcium) and flock raiser in there for staple.I also put in dry ground catfood. Plus they love oranges, apples, canteloupe and greens from the yard and carrots.I sometimes throw in some wet catfood if Im out feeding the cats and have a little left in the can. Ive put in leftover cooked chicken bones(I also give those to the rats, they love them).I dont buy water gel cubes.I have a lid and put in a blob of wet papertowel If I think they need water.Mostly fruit though for water.
I use crickets from my LPS and I feed them Purina brand cat food and water crystals without calcium (now that I have my anoles too, I will be calcium dusting the crickets before feeding the anoles). For my T's though, the food is low calcium. I may start my own "colony" of crickets, though it is going to be smelly yuck. I may see if I can start a small roach colony instead but I'm sure my mom will be against that! She HATES roaches with a passion.
I feed my superworms and crickets on fluker farms gutload, or other various gutloads purchased over the internet. And a variety of greens such as romaine lettuce, green leaf lettuce, red leaf lettuce, slices of orange and apples. A lot of my herp keeping methods are old school, but effective for the overall health of your animals.
I actually have a question about what I have been feeding MY crickets lately. I took care of a bearded dragon for a short time but I purchased a large container of bearded dragon food. So.. I have been feeding them to my crickets .. BUT i have Leopard geckos and a Tarantula that eat the crickets. Would this be a bad idea? ...The crickets seem to love it lol
That will be make for a perfectly suitable gutload for everyone = ) I use combinations of things like chick starter, quality dog and cat kibble, and fish food as my main dry gutload base. Works great and none of it is specially tailored to reptiles at all! As long as you are feeding them something decent, its better than feeding them nothing (or feeding them junk fillers that lacks any nutrients whatsoever).
