I'm asking if pine bedding is okay for corn snakes. The reason I ask this is because my dad brought home a bag of it and said I could use it and was thinking i could use it for my corn snake to come. ( Hopefully, I'll get a snow corn snake when I finally get the snake itself. ) I've looked online and found sites that said it would be a fine substrate, while others recommended against it. :? Can you guys help me? Are pine shavings a safe substrate?
Pine is definitely NOT okay to use for corns, or snakes in general. Pine, cedar, fir, and other various types of wood can be poisonous to them. The only 2 types of substrate you should use to be 100% sure you aren't harming your snake is either aspen shavings or coconut bark. Most prefer aspen shavings because it is suitable for your snake to burrow under, and it allows for easy cleanup. The coconut bark is ok, some people think it looks better, but it's more rough and doesn't allow your snake to burrow (which may be important for your snake to be stress-free, b/c corns like to burrow, especially during digestion and when they are cranky before shedding). You may find some random websites saying pine and other types of bedding are okay, but most reliable sources will tell you otherwise. Either way it's not worth the risk.
My snakes are spoiled on the natural Exo-terra stuff for herps. It's somewhat pricy though. So hopefully ya have a job....... I have seen some debate on pine, ( as an owner of a PINE snake, I find it strange that is natural habitat is poisonous and evolution missed it) but certainly the oils in cedar are a known issue. Dave
Ayasha good point about the pine snake... although just because it was given the name pine & it's natural habitat has plenty of pine trees, that doesn't necessarily mean pine would be safe for it or any other snake. My guess is that pine snakes don't live in pine trees, but rather on/under ground, under rocks, etc. and if they like climbing in trees they could simply choose not to go up a pine tree, so it wouldn't have been necessary for evolution to compensate. Of course, this is with my assumption that pine wood is in fact poisonous to snakes, which is what I've read/heard from several reliable sources. It may just be that pine is very irritating to snakes for whatever reason, so while it might not kill them by poison, it might stress them out enough they could die from not eating, etc. (like I said above, outside a snake could choose not to be on pine, but in a viv full of it they have no choice) Although I'm sure there are exceptions, as always. Another factor, however, there are many different types of pine. Is all pine poisonous to snakes, or just certain types? Or maybe certain types of pine are poisonous to certain types of snakes? I certainly don't know the answers to these Q's, but figure no matter what it's not worth risking any herps' health by gambling w/ it.
But an interesting qustion non the less..... I shall do some research later on and see if I can't get some hard data as to which are dangerous and why. As with many 'Snake' related issues, I hear so many versions of everything. So we're in agreeance that Pine and Cedar have bad reputations. from what I do know it's related to the oils in them. That's about it. Anyone with some hard data,please do enlighten us on the issue. Greatly appreciated. Dave
To follow up on last post; NOTE: I am not saying to use Pine. I agree that in no way is it worth finding out that it is toxic. This discussion is merely to get everyone a chance to pipe in on Substrate discussions; No actual empirical data or other technical data yet..but here’s some stuff for ya’ll. Keep in mind opinions vary, I am still on the hunt for actual data. There is certainly consensus on Cedar, but I found people using (reputable herpers) Pine chips as recently as last year. So possibly this is a new phenomenon. There are plenty of references to ‘it is advised’ kinda stuff, but no actual data once again. Pine and Cedar; “Pine Shavings - Recently it has come to light that pine shavings can be toxic. They give off fumes that can be harmful. Not as bad as cedar but I won't use it. DO NOT EVER USE CEDAR BEDDING!!! Cedar bedding is very toxic to reptiles and will kill them! Actually it is toxic to the small mammals it is generally used for too.” Another opinion on it….. “AVOID cedar, redwood, or pine at all costs because they are toxic to reptiles. The fumes from cedar and redwood cause respiratory infections that will kill them. Pine is toxic when ingested..” More… “One opinion that is shared by most pet owners is that pine and cedar should not be used as substrate for your snake's enclosure, or as substrate for any feeder animals you may also keep. It has been suspected for a while now that there are toxic oils in these woods that may cause organ damage to animals kept on them. This is still under heavy debate, but since there are so many other options out there, why take a chance? “ even more……… Pine and Cedar shavings Pros: *Smells good Cons: *The tar and scents are toxic to reptiles *May cause respiratory infections and even death” Other Substrates; “Soil/Sand: For the most natural-looking enclosure, you may want to consider using potting soil or sand as your substrate. They allow snakes to burrow freely, and are fairly easy and inexpensive to replace. Good pet stores usually carry a product called cal-sand, or something of that nature. Supposedly this is healthy for your animal, even when accidentally ingested, and may be worth a look. If you decide on soil for your substrate, please use only plain, store-bought potting soil, and keep it dry to prevent mold and fungus growth. Dirt obtained from your backyard may contain bugs, pesticides, fungi, or any number of things you don't want your snake exposed to. This is also a good choice if you prefer to use live plants in your enclosure. Don't be surprised if your snake digs them up, though.” …and “Shredded paper/bark: A very common substrate on the market, it also provides many options for appearance in your snake tank. In this classification, we include shredded orchid, fir, and aspen barks, ground corn cobs, rodent pellets, and manufactured products like Care-Fresh bedding. All of these are very absorbent and easy to care for you simply scoop out the soiled substrate and replace it. Some are specially made to maintain humidity in your enclosure, whereas some may be dangerously drying to the skin of your animal. With these types of substrate, you again have the problems of accidental ingestion and dust, as addressed above. This type of substrate also makes it much easier for various external parasites to live, but this can be minimized with proper attention and cleaning.” Also……. “ReptiBark (and Equivalents) Pros: *Good substrate *Promotes borrowing *Helps with shedding *Stays relatively dry Cons: *Very dark and hard to spot clean *Insects have been found in packages bought new from store *Expensive *Will mold when wet Talk amongst yourselves; Should I find some clear data I will post… Peace Dave
Hey... I was reading a copy of Reptiles USA mag today, an article on Vivariums, and got a more comprehensive list of wwods not to use; "Some woods contain noxious or toxic compunds. These include most coniferous soft woods, such as pine,juniper,cedar and redwoods; all fruit woods of the genus Prunus, including apricot,cherry,nectarine,peach,plum; and most nut woods including walnut, butternut, almond etcc." There is also advice as to avoiding materials that are not prepared for animals/herps. In other words FIR chips from home depot, commercial use etc. It can be treated with preservatifes and the like. So, I have not found the actual scientific data yet... but the info is growing at least....
Yeah it seems most info and opinions support the idea that cedar and pine can be toxic to reptiles. What about fir? I've heard similarly bad things. I agree with your statement you should never used something that is not made specifically for reptiles. As a side note, I used to buy my apen shavings at the local pet store (PetCo), until I realized Walmart has aspen shavings in their pet section (even though they don't care other stuff for reptiles). The bag says it's made for reptiles, and it was 1/3 the price with 5x more shavings! Ah Walmart, comes through again... Ayasha thanks for the info & keep posting more as you find it! I'm interested to know if you find anything else. Although what you've found so far seems pretty concrete.
I used to use that brand for my hamsters a long time ago so I know it's good. It's what I use for my corn now
Better safe than sorry...Why chance that it may make your snake ill? I use aspen for all of my snakes, and I like it. And I also buy my aspen at Walmart!
DragonCharmTwo said that newspaper was a good solid substrate, but what about the ink in the newspaper? would that do the snake harm? I'm still looking around at other substrates,but I think I might go with aspen bedding.
getting closer.... Hi gang.... in my never ending quest for the truth... I have gotten closer to the core of the PINE thing with some more scientific research/data/hypothesis. Sounds like fun huh? Well I want to get to the bottom of it (get it? bottom? SubStrate?..ugh..) Here is some more in depth info Cedar; http://www.anapsid.org/cedar.html (1994 studies, updated 2002) Cedar and Pine; http://www.anapsid.org/cedar2.html (2004) Pro-Pine; The truth about Pine shavings (??)http://www.geocities.com/heavyhitter1.geo/Pine.html (1997) more if I find it...and any one wants it..lol
RE: getting closer.... Wow! I didn't realize that such a debate was going on about pine and cedar shavings!
Re: RE: Pine bedding? If it's aged for a few weeks so that the ink is set then it's not a problem. I've seen plenty of breeders do this, including NERD (I got the backroom tour and saw more $$$ in snakes than I'll ever see again, lol). The easiest is to use old store flyers, the newspaper type ones, not the shiny ones. Once the sale is over the store does nothing but throw them out, so go down to your local supermarket and ask if you can have their leftovers. They literally will have hundreds and will probably throw a bundle or two at you. The best thing is that those sale flyers are printed months in advance so you know it's good and aged.
RE: Re: RE: Pine bedding? Personally I would still be afraid of the ink being an issue... even months or years later you can easily wipe the ink off with your fingers. I'd assume the same goes for when a snake rubs against it (over and over again). It could especially be a problem if your snake decides to take a little dip in the waterbowl, or if you mist the tank during shedding... it could cause the ink to bleed. And DragonCharm, wouldn't those advertisement papers have even more ink with all the pictures and whatnot? While newspaper may be cheap and easy, it's not necessarily the best way to go. Unless someone else here knows of some studies done (ayasha?), it may not be worth taking the gamble that the ink could be toxic. Besides, if you want to make your snake happy you need to give him something like aspen shavings so he can burrow! But if you're set on a bargain budget or simplicity, I'd use plain paper towel (w/o prints) instead of newspaper.
