Feeding Frequency

Discussion in 'Corns & Rat Snakes' started by CalasCorns, May 27, 2006.

  1. CalasCorns

    CalasCorns Member

    Messages:
    394
    This has come up in a thread and rather than hijack the thread, I'll start a new one.

    I'm currently using a system that I have to give someone else credit for. That would be Roy Munson from cornsnakes.com. After thinking about his feeding schedule and then noticing how quickly most of my snakes ate, digested, and then crapped out their meals, I was quickly in agreement with him regarding this.

    He has been doing this since he purchased numerous out of the egg snakes from Rich Z in July. Most of his 2005's are over 100 grams, with a few being over 200 grams.

    The schedule is basically as follows:

    Single pinkie every 3 days.

    Double pinkie every 3-4 days.

    Fuzzy every 4-5 days

    Hoppers-adults every 5-10.

    I'm not a fan of powerfeeding but this makes sense, and from what I'm seeing in my own collection (30+) this is not powerfeeding. My 2005's that are still on single pinkies have normally crapped out their meal within 48 hours. I most recently fed the smaller ones the night of the 21st and when I re-checked them on the 23rd all of them had deficated. Once you step up to fuzzies digestion takes more time, but I also do cut the mice. I think it helps them digest easier and makes the thicker skin and hair less of a burden.

    I do dust with a 1:1 of nutribac and herptivite, and when they are progressing from one size to the next, the prey items are essentially coated with the nutribac.

    As to the discussion with another poster (can't remember the name, sorry!) about the vet saying that a 30 gram snake was fine on pinkies, I vehemently disagree. A single pinkie every 5-7 days for a snake that large is not nearly enough food. Growth will plateau very shortly when fed on a diet like that.

    [​IMG]

    That snake weights rougly 25 grams and is pounding fuzzies. I have snakes sitting on 22 grams eating fuzzies without a problem.

    [​IMG]

    That ghost mot is about 18 grams and eating two pinkies every 3-4 days. It will have a few more double pinkie meals and then will be eating fuzzies.

    I don't have perfect records and haven't been able to keep this schedule up every week due to graduation, death in the family, and now a vacation, but I do believe it is working as I've seen a great jump in weight gain.

    I've got a PM that I sent to Roy back on April 23rd and was a comparison showing the growth rates since April 8th.

    Now I know this is a small sampling, but it still shows something. I wish I had the newest weights that I took the other night somewhere online, but unfortunately I do not.

    I'll be online for a few more hours and will be able to answer any questions about this when I get back on June 8th.
     
  2. JEFFREH

    JEFFREH Administrator

    Messages:
    5,483
     
  3. Eirecorcaigh

    Eirecorcaigh Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,182
    It was me! :)

    Anywho, I did some thinking on this, and I think this is where we're disagreeing (if several reputable, educated people are telling I'm going the correct route, I have to side with them!).

    Here are two of my leopard geckos, Bernie on the left... Gilbert on the right.

    [​IMG][​IMG]

    Bernie is accepting Superwroms quite readily, where as Superworms are a little too big for Gilbert still, he's eating mealworms. As far as worms and feeding these guys go, the general rule of thumb is no longer than the length of the gecko's head.

    These pictures were both taken this morning, and as of weight check-in yesterday, Bernie weighed 55 grams and Gilbert weighed 68 grams. Looking at the pictures, you'd think it was the other way around! However, Gilbert is much longer than Bernie is. Bernie's length is only about 7 inches, and Gilbert is close to 9 inches.

    I'm thinking that a 30 gram snake with a shorter length is going to have a much wider girth around than a 30 grams snake with a longer length. My corn snake Clayton is on larger sized pinkies, and yesterday I did go to a pet store to look at the mice fuzzies they had there, because off the top of my head I had no idea what size they actually were. They did look too big for him, but like you said, maybe I am underestimating what he can swallow, it's always possible :p

    So anyway, does this make sense? Does anyone else have a 30 gram snake that they're feeding two large pinkies to every six days? Or are they on fuzzies yet?
     
  4. JEFFREH

    JEFFREH Administrator

    Messages:
    5,483
     
  5. Zia

    Zia Member

    Messages:
    346
    RE: Re: Feeding Frequency

    just because it CAN swallow it and swallowing the food safely are two completely different things. a 13 foot burmese can swallow a 6ft alligator just fine, but died a day later. So just because it can shove the thing down its throat doesnt mean it's safe.

    Just my 2 cents.
     
  6. JEFFREH

    JEFFREH Administrator

    Messages:
    5,483
     
  7. Ash19

    Ash19 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,104
    RE: Re: Feeding Frequency

    But isn't rushing the growth rate of the snake considered power-feeding? If your method isn't power feeding, what is? I'm just not understanding this. And I seem to remember you saying a pinkie has no nutrience. A fuzzy does. Or a fuzzy is more nutritious then a pinkie. But isn't rushing the snake to take a food item too big just because it's better, unsafe for them? Would this not shorten their life span as well as stunt their growth? Keep in mind, I'm not a pro. I don't know everything there is to know about corn snakes. I learn more and more as I go along. But this is all from what I've read and heard. My undertanding.
     
  8. JEFFREH

    JEFFREH Administrator

    Messages:
    5,483
     
  9. Clementine_3

    Clementine_3 ReptileBoards Addict

    Messages:
    7,400
    RE: Re: Feeding Frequency

    Now I'll be the first to admit I know very little about snakes, I'm just starting out now, but have read over and over that corn snakes should eat once a week and only prey items that are as big as their girth (or just slightly larger). Anything more than that would be considered power feeding and as Ash19 points out that has all sorts of health risks associated with it. The bit about what they can fit in their mouth would be, I should think, more applicable to pythons than corns. I say this because I will be getting a python so have researched them, but we have a corn snake also so I know a bit about them as well. I recall reading, on a python site, that 'we are not talking corn snakes, these guys (Irian Jaya's) can take much bigger prey than you would think', which leads me to believe corns really should have small, girth sized prey. Just because they 'can fit it in' would seem to apply to pythons, not corns. But, this is me being new and still learning, and willing to toss my two cents in!
     
  10. JEFFREH

    JEFFREH Administrator

    Messages:
    5,483
     
  11. Eirecorcaigh

    Eirecorcaigh Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,182
    RE: Re: Feeding Frequency

    Actually, Clementine_3 is correct with that statement. Pythons can take much larger prey than say a colubrid, like a corn snake. Now, I'm no expert, (nobody is really, we all learn new things everyday!), and have only owned my snake since last January, but I don't understand why you would call your schedule a normal food schedule, and not power feeding. And upon examination of my snake, wouldn't you think my vet would suggest feeding my corn fuzzies if he thought he could handle him, and not just two pinkies every 6 to 8 days? He's been practing reptile and avian vetrinary medicine since 1984, and has owned many snake and lizard species, so I tend to trust his judgement.

    But how about a second opinion? This is an excerpt from Reptile Medicine and Surgery by Dr. Douglas Mader, DVM:

    The snake may grow, but it looks to me that it's doing a world of hurt on it's poor body. I only want what's best for my snake, and I don't think that diet you're suggesting is the way to go.
     
  12. wm7m79

    wm7m79 Embryo

    Messages:
    18
    RE: Re: Feeding Frequency

    Clementine_3, the size of the prey item you stated is correct. When I first got involved with corn snakes I went to the herpetologist at my local university for advice. He had been studying corns for years.

    Advice for feeding hatchlings and juvies; as often as they will eat and use appropriate sized items if you want them to grow as much as possible. You can limit their growth by withholding food but this could also lead to an unhealthy snake.

    Adults are another matter. Once a week to twice a month depending on the animal. If it is a female producing eggs, offer her food after she defecates. I had a male (almost 6 feet!) who would eat once a month for three months (spring), then twice a month until winter.

    You can feed more than one item at a time if the animal will take it but try to keep it to one third the weight of the snake and even at this point you will be risking regurgitation.

    All of the above assumes you have the right temps and a good set up for the snake.

    Hope that helps!
     
  13. wm7m79

    wm7m79 Embryo

    Messages:
    18
    RE: Re: Feeding Frequency

    I forgot to add for the juvies; a good rule of thumb is to offer food after the animal defecates.
     
  14. CalasCorns

    CalasCorns Member

    Messages:
    394
    Sorry I'm just getting to this, but I was on vacation and sort of still am. I can't address the gecko issue because I don't have one and have no clue about their feeding schedules.

    As far as fuzzies go, you need to remember there is a huge variety. There are peach fuzzies to full fuzzies that are just about crawlers. I'm not suggesting you find the biggest fuzzy and toss it to your snake, but I find it very hard to believe that a 30 gram snake can't handle a small fuzzy. If you're feeding the snake 2 large pinkies every 6 days, that just goes to tell me that it can handle a fuzzy as long as your temps are good enough. The growth rate on fuzzies is just so much better than on pinkies which is why I push them to get off pinkies ASAP.
     
  15. CalasCorns

    CalasCorns Member

    Messages:
    394
    Re: RE: Re: Feeding Frequency

    I don't believe that pushing a snake to get off pinkies as soon as possible is powerfeeding. I would consider powerfeeding stuffing a snake with adult or near adult sized mice. I don't think that feeding aggressively with pinkies and fuzzies does a snake any harm.

    From what I have seen, aggressively feeding a snake pinkies and then fuzzies doesn't stunt growth, in fact, the growth rate is phenominal. From getting other people's yearlings that were fed on a slow rate, they seem to take longer and do not respond as well to a more aggressive feeding schedule. I have yearlings from people that are sitting at 50 grams, while I have 2005 hatchlings that are sitting at 30 grams. I can't see how super-slow growth rate is at all beneficial to any creature, especially a snake. If the snake is eating and growing, what's the problem? Do you think snakes in the wild would not eat multiple prey items if given the chance?

    Many people are unwilling to try new things. When Roy first came out with this feeding schedule, I thought it was stupid. I though about it, and then decided to give it a try. It made sense from the idea that pinkies have very little nutritional value, and once you got a snake to larger prey items their growth was much better. I've tried it and am now in total agreement with the schedule.
     
  16. CalasCorns

    CalasCorns Member

    Messages:
    394
    Re: RE: Re: Feeding Frequency


    We'll address the first part of this post to begin with.

    Why are you so hesitant to do something other than what your vet suggests? You said your vet has had numerous snakes since 1984---how many corns does he have now? Has he tried other feeding schedules?

    Ask Kathy Love about trying different things. She's in agreement upon people trying new things as far as feedings, substrate, breeding, egg incubation, etc. Too many people are stuck on 'everyone says we should do it this way, so we'll do it that way!' And yes, it's not a bad thing. However, there are other acceptable ways of raising and breeding snakes that do not include the norm.

    I'm not debating that once a week feedings do work. It's just that with most snakes it takes them a while to grow. My suggestion, if you'll look again, is to feeding pinkies and fuzzies at an accelerated growth rate and then scale back to once a week feedings once you get to hoppers. Why is this a problem?

    Here's a challenge. Feed your 30 gram snake ONE pinkie. Note when it was fed, and then when the snake craps. I'm willing to bet it's within 48 hours. Do the same with 2 pinkies. I bet it takes no more than 3-4 days for both pinkies to be crapped out. So based on your 6-8 day feeding schedule, your snake isn't doing anything as far as digesting for a portion of potentially 3-5 days. Doesn't that seem like a waste? None of the snakes I'm using this feeding plan on refuse food, period. They all generally leap out of the container at the food.

    If you're brave, and willing to TRY something---find a small fuzzy from the pet store and feeding it to your snake. If the snake regurges---it regurges. It's not the end of the world. I've had a few snakes regurge---you just scale them back. Occasional regurges is not a huge crisis, although more than one in a row can be a huge problem.

    I'm just suggesting trying something new....
     
  17. Eirecorcaigh

    Eirecorcaigh Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,182
    RE: Re: RE: Re: Feeding Frequency

    I'm not hesitant to try something different from what my vet says... remember: I've already asked around on this, and the smallest fuzzies I could find are 5g ones. Which are larger than 1.5X his widest girth. I know that he would have problems digesting this, as does my vet, the breeder I get my feeders from, a few other vets, as well as friends of mine who have been long time snake keepers, including corns.

    My vet has one corn snake right now, who is a few years old currently. I asked him about your feeding schedule you suggested, and the words "power feeding" came up several times when he responded. I once considered feeding two pinkies at a time power feeding, but he explained to me that it was safe, and that since the width of the mouse was decent sized compared to my corn's maximum girth, there would be no issues. Look! I tried something new! I've also tried new substrates with him including, reptile carpet, paper towels and aspen bedding.

    With the example with the leopard geckos, I was just suggesting that maybe you were thinking of a 30 gram snake that was a shorter than my snake was. For example, a 20 inch long 30 gram snake will have a wider girth than a 25 inch long 30 gram snake. This is why the normal "healthy" weight for a woman that is 5'7" can be 150 lbs, but a woman that is 5'4" that is 150 lbs, is going to look plumper and not as healthy and slim. But, a snake with a wider girth would be able to take larger prey than a snake with a smaller girth.

    Like I said before, I'm only trying to do what is right for my little guy. And I've been told by several different people, in several different professions that involve herps that I'm going the right route, and that your methods could be considered power feeding.
     
  18. Eirecorcaigh

    Eirecorcaigh Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,182
    RE: Re: RE: Re: Feeding Frequency

    I was also under the impression, that regurgitation was bad no matter what! So if you're feeding a larger prey item that the likelihood of regurgitation is higher, and you're saying "well if it does, than I guess it does", that doesn't seem to me like you have great concern for your snake's health and well being.
     
  19. CalasCorns

    CalasCorns Member

    Messages:
    394
    Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Feeding Frequency

    Of course I have concern for my snake's health and well being, which is exactly why I use an aggressive feeding schedule at the start. Hatchlings are frail and sometimes can have feeding issues. Once you get them past that stage and onto fuzzies they seem to settle into a groove and the problem are not as often.
     
  20. CalasCorns

    CalasCorns Member

    Messages:
    394
    Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Feeding Frequency

    So let me ask you a question. How much does each large pinky weigh? Is their combined weight less than 5 grams? I doubt it if you're truely feeding large pinkies.

    And yes, I would agree that feeding an adult snake, or even a sub-adult every 3-4 days would be powerfeeding, but I do not agree on a hatchling. Notice that once the snake is off fuzzies, it's back to a 5-7 day feeding schedule, which is what most people consider 'normal'.

    Of course your vet has training and went to vet school for exotics and herps, but he has one snake. I'm certainly not saying I know more than he does, but I'm running this feeding schedule on 15 or so 2004 and 2005 snakes that I have. I've seen no ill effects and what has amounted to an awesome growth rate. I would be concerned about this schedule if I intended to feed the snake that same amount of food over the course of it's life, but I don't. You have to back off when you get to bigger mice because it takes longer to digest.

    I asked you in the last post if you'd be willing to document on here when you feed your snake the next time and when you witness the first crap. My bet is 48 hours if your temps are around 80 degrees. And based on a 7 day schedule that's 4-5 days of wasted opportunity to feed the snake and have it grow off pinkies.

    Also, I've got a variety of sizes that are on fuzzies. The lowest are sitting at 22 grams and they're eating fuzzies that The Mouse Factory says are 5-7 grams. Most internet food sites say that large pinkies are between 2.5 and 3.5 grams. Either way, that adds up to at least 5 grams, which is what you say the fuzzies you have access to are.

    I know you're concerned about a regurge, which is why when I make a transition I put slits in the skin and dust fairly heavily with NutriBac.

    When I get back to my apartment I'll post pictures of my bloodreds eating fuzzies and the obvious and noticeable bulge that was left (bigger than 1.5x) so that you can get some sort of a visual idea.

    In the meantime, seriously consider how feeding just pinkies and fuzzies on that schedule would be powerfeeding and ask yourself if a cornsnake in the wild wouldn't eat in the same way if given the chance.
     
  21. CalasCorns

    CalasCorns Member

    Messages:
    394
    Okay, as promised here are the pictures....

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  22. Ash19

    Ash19 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,104
    Lol, your corn is so pretty it's hard to remember and concentrate on the purpose of your post!
     
  23. Clementine_3

    Clementine_3 ReptileBoards Addict

    Messages:
    7,400
    I have to go back to my other post....for a python that's fine, but for a corn it looks like too much. The 'bulge' appears to large to me at any rate, again, for a corn. It's probably what would happen in the wild, but that doesn't mean it's the best thing for the snake. I could be way off base, but that's just the way I see it :)
     
  24. CalasCorns

    CalasCorns Member

    Messages:
    394
    Why do you think the bulge is too big? Do you own a corn? I push the limits on what they can handle when they're small, and I don't see a problem with it. I don't expect everyone to agree with me on this issue.

    However, if you're going to discuss or disagree I'd prefer that there is actually some corn snake feeding experience rather than "The book says 1.5x". I understand what the CSM says and I don't disagree with it, but I also believe there are other acceptable ways of feeding, breeding, incubating, etc.
     
  25. Eirecorcaigh

    Eirecorcaigh Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,182
    I go by the 1.5X rule, only because I've been told that by vets, breeders, and other reliable sources, such as CSM by Kathy and Bill Love. These are trusted sources. No offense, but I don't know you from a hole in the wall! Which is why I tend to stick with information being given to me by these other sources. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: I only want the best for my snake.
     

Share This Page