Fancy Rat Breeder looking for Feedback

Discussion in 'Feeder Forum' started by TessMillerDT, Dec 7, 2005.

  1. TessMillerDT

    TessMillerDT Embryo

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    My name is Tess M. Miller, and I've been working almost 6 years as a Fancy Rat breeder, just recently entering the world of professional breeding and showing. Since I'm relatively new to the breeding scene, I'm running into a lot of new opinions from long time breeders and judges. I've noticed that the one thing that everyone seems to agree on, is the absolutely gross living conditions in Wholesale Rodent Manufacturers (or "Rat Mills"). If you don't know what one is (or if you care) you can check out what I'm specifically talking about at (http://pawofjustice.org/index.php?cat=11)

    Anyways, the rats are raised in mills that produce up to 100,000 a month to sell to petstores, zoos & independant buyers. These animals live an awful life. So breeders specifically don't support this trade by not visiting petstores of major chains, and encouraging their adopters to do the same. However, the one thing that bothers me about this argument is that we also do not sell our own stock as feeders, we are fitfully against it, and will never sell to a reptile owner.

    I'm currently writing an article called Breeders & Feeders: Are we making the problem worse? Where I bring up the idea that the animals from our litter that are not part of our breeding programs, might be used to sell to herpe owners as a way to cut down mill demand. By telling herpe owners that they cannot adopt from us, we are basically saying your options are to go to a petstore, and buy a mill rat, and support the industry. Even those of you who breed most likely bought your breeders from a petstore, therefore supporting the mills. If we really wanted this to stop, we would do something about it and live up to our argument. We argue that all rats (even if they are food) should be given a good life up until that point. So why don't we offer that good life, instead of closing doors and creating more mill demand?

    So before I post this article to the rat community (which will probably crucify me for suggesting it) I wanted to get any feedback I could from actual herpe owners and breeders. If you have the time, please let me know:

    • How often do you purchase feeders, and it what quantity?
      If you breed your own feeding stock, do you offer them a good quality of life before feeding?
      Even though your love is in snakes, do you not think that rodents deserve proper housing and care (not in a mill)?
      If breeders of quality Fancy Rats began to offer their stock as feeders, would you purchase them and play your part to lessen the demand of rat mills?[/list]
      Thanks for any info that you can provide!
     
  2. JEFFREH

    JEFFREH Administrator

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  3. Janice

    Janice ReptileBoards Addict

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    Hmm, if you are asking if I play with my rats before I feed them to my snakes, then the answer is no. I cannot have a rat as a pet and then feed it to my snake. I have my breeders that will not be fed, no matter what. I have hooded, rex, double rex, and of course dumbos. I have 7 snakes that eat rats, from pinkie size to adult size. I use CO2 to put them to sleep before I feed them. My rats live in cages, they do not run around loose. How can life in cages be determined as good quality of life? I really don't think it can. I purchased my original breeders from a pet store. I feed my rats and they are in proper cages. A lot of snake keepers buy in bulk, frozen feeders, if they are not breeding their own.
     
  4. JEFFREH

    JEFFREH Administrator

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  5. TessMillerDT

    TessMillerDT Embryo

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    Thanks for the feedback! I wasn't really asking if snake breeders socialize with their feeders, I would be surprised by that. The question I'm really looking to have answered is, if I were to sell my own rats as food, would snake breeders buy from me in order to support a rats' "right" to be treated well even before becoming food?

    I don't think living in a cage would be a great life, no. But even snakes have to be contained in something, and so do rats. The problem is mills that house dozens and dozens of rats in housing that is suitable for only a few.

    Would you support breeders who care properly for their rats by purchasing any offspring they wished to sell as food?
     
  6. JEFFREH

    JEFFREH Administrator

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  7. shrap

    shrap ReptileBoards Addict

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    I think the first priority to snake keepers, in regards to feeders, is that the feeders be healthy. A healthy well fed feeder is going to make for a healthy well fed snake. I personally breed all of my own feeders because I am anal retentive about knowing the health, background and conditions my feeders are kept in.

    The second thing that they look at is cost. If you have 20, 30, 50, 100 plus snakes that are being fed weekly that can be a very large chunk of change. If "pet" rat breeders prices are inline with "volume" rat breeders then I am sure people would look into buying from you. If you are charging 25, 50, 100, 200 percent more then I do not believe people will buy from you.

    I must say though, that you act like all "volume" breeders keep their rats in horrible conditions and that all "pet" rat breeders keep them pristine. That is just not true. I have seen very good of both types and very bad of both types.
     
  8. JEFFREH

    JEFFREH Administrator

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  9. Ravnos

    Ravnos New Member

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    I buy my feeders in bulk, frozen - usually about 100lbs at a time. I guess that would be considered a "mill". They keep their rats in large bins, bare minimum of housing and only what I would consider to be adequate feeding to make them grow at an efficient rate, little or no toys, treats or socialization with humans, in the end they are euthanized by CO2. Would I buy from a breeder that fed them a better diet and cared for them better? Probably... but the cost is going to be the major difference for just about anyone who buys in large quantity. There are some "mills" that I buy from and some that I won't buy from at all, and that largely has to do with the quality of rat I get from them, but I'm afraid that no one wants to pay even close to pet prices for feeders.

    I also breed a few fancy rats, which I sell to a local pet shop. They're treated as pets with proper caging, treats, a varied diet, and regular human interaction - they're not bred for feeders or euthanized for such, but if one passes away, I don't generally hesitate to consider it snake food. Most rat people consider me disgusting for that, but I refuse to let something go to waste around here. -_-
     
  10. JEFFREH

    JEFFREH Administrator

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  11. TessMillerDT

    TessMillerDT Embryo

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    That's absolutly right. I myself have met many "pet quality" breeders who house their animals in horrible conditions that make me sick. As with all animal breeders, you can never be sure of the care unless you are there firsthand, I'm sure the same is true for snakes though I've never personally looked into it. And you're right, I shouldn't generalize about all wholesale breeders. However, to really provide an animal with the best possible lifestyle, you would never make enough money off the cheap sales of feeders.

    I do not expect wholesale breeders to provide the lifestyle that these animals deserve and have a right to. That's why I feel that as humane breeders that care about the quality and health of our animals, should actually attempt to do something about it instead of bitching about "oh how horrible!"
     
  12. TessMillerDT

    TessMillerDT Embryo

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    That is a problem in the rat community. A lot of breeders believe that if you raise for pet quality animals, you are a heartless son of a b**** if you consider using any animals at all as feed. But to be honest, everything in life, no matter what it eats deserves the best quality of living that can possibly be provided to it. I am nervous about how the rat community is going to handle my "rash views" on this matter!!
     
  13. Janice

    Janice ReptileBoards Addict

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    I have to agree with Shrap. Good intentions can only go so far. While I wouldn't knowingly support and purchase rats from someone who kept them in the conditions that you describe. I don't purchase animals in general from a petstore any more. As a fancy rat breeder, doesn't it go against some kind of rat breeder ethics to think about selling stock for snake food?
     
  14. Janice

    Janice ReptileBoards Addict

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    Re: RE: Fancy Rat Breeder looking for Feedback

    Everything that I have read about rat breeding when I first started, indicated that there is no profit to be made in rat breeding, even pet quality.
     
  15. shrap

    shrap ReptileBoards Addict

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    RE: Re: RE: Fancy Rat Breeder looking for Feedback

    Even if there was a profit involved if you are not working with animals becuase you love them and enjoy working with them then you are in it for all the wrong reasons. Be it mammals, herps, fish, etc.
     
  16. TessMillerDT

    TessMillerDT Embryo

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    RE: Re: RE: Fancy Rat Breeder looking for Feedback

    Oh how right you are! I lose money every week indulging in my litters, but it's something I really enjoy. Just to make sure, I wasn't saying that anyone makes money off of good care, just to point out that if you were to provide bad care, you might be able to make money. I don't see why not, otherwise why else would wholesale feeder breeders be in the business? In there case the breeding isn't for the love of the animals, so they must make money off of it.

    Yes. When becoming a member of a recognized club (in my case RSA "Rat Society of America") you sign a code of ethics agreement stating that you will not sell any offspring as food. The reason this is in place is because the clubs do not want to support the keeping on herpes (and any other rodent consuming animals) as pets, nor associate with them. However this is the reason for the article I'm writing. I'm trying to make the point that culling (only keeping the animals from each litter you plan on breeding) our litters may actually slow the demand placed on Rat Mills to provide the herpe community with food.
     
  17. Janice

    Janice ReptileBoards Addict

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    RE: Re: RE: Fancy Rat Breeder looking for Feedback

    If you are culling your stock, then there is no reason to sell at a higher price than regular feeder breeders. Good luck with not getting kicked out for bringing this to your community. I think there ideas are set, and there's no changing them. And your signature is a little too long. You can read the forum rules here....
    http://www.reptilerooms.com/forumtopic-6425.html
     
  18. TessMillerDT

    TessMillerDT Embryo

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    RE: Re: RE: Fancy Rat Breeder looking for Feedback

    My bad, sorry -_- And thanks for all of the wonderful help!

    Out of curiosity, are there any snakes I could own that aren't fed rodents? insects perhaps?
     
  19. Ravnos

    Ravnos New Member

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    RE: Re: RE: Fancy Rat Breeder looking for Feedback

    Rough green snakes eat soft bodied insects (mainly crickets in captivity). Many species of garter and ribbon snakes can live on earth worms and fish. Water snakes feed primarily on fish. Night snakes, vine snakes, flying snakes, and many, many other species are primarily lizard eaters. Earth snakes, ground snakes and hook nosed snakes will eat worms, spiders, centipedes and so forth. Blind snakes feed almost exclusively on ant and termite larvae. -_- There are many non-rodent feeding choices out there, but they are not kept as often so do require a little bit more research than other species.
     
  20. Janice

    Janice ReptileBoards Addict

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    RE: Re: RE: Fancy Rat Breeder looking for Feedback

    Even though ball pythons eat rats, they are my favourite snake. They are worth looking at. It's something you can get used to. -_-
     
  21. Janice

    Janice ReptileBoards Addict

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    RE: Re: RE: Fancy Rat Breeder looking for Feedback

    Oh, and Tess? Welcome to Reptile Rooms! This is a great place, and you'll find a wealth of information here!!!
     
  22. TessMillerDT

    TessMillerDT Embryo

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    RE: Re: RE: Fancy Rat Breeder looking for Feedback

    shudder.... I couldn't own a snake that had to be fed rodents. I've been raising them since I was 4 (with my mom's help of course!) and have too much respect for them as the intelligent animals that they are. I really really love snakes though, and have always wanted to make the time for something small that would eat fish and worms and such. Maybe I'll get a little bitty garter snake and name it Randy.
     
  23. Janice

    Janice ReptileBoards Addict

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    RE: Re: RE: Fancy Rat Breeder looking for Feedback

    You have a very nice website!
     
  24. TessMillerDT

    TessMillerDT Embryo

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    RE: Re: RE: Fancy Rat Breeder looking for Feedback

    Oh thank you! I put a lot of work into it, it's nice to know someone actually looked! And thanks for the welcome, I will probably scout around a bit and find out some more info on reptiles while I'm here. I've had bad luck with iguanas in the past, but a small snake is still freakin' cool!
     
  25. Janice

    Janice ReptileBoards Addict

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    RE: Re: RE: Fancy Rat Breeder looking for Feedback

    Bearded Dragons are really cool. I have one, and they don't get quite as big as iggies.
     

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