Dubia vs. Turkistan Roaches?

Discussion in 'Feeder Forum' started by яowan.ω, Aug 6, 2011.

  1. яowan.ω

    яowan.ω Member

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    Lol, another one of mai noob questions. x_x Is there a difference in nutritional value between the two? I know dubia roaches are bigger, but could a full grown leo eat an adult dubia? Is one more active than the other, or more high-maintenance? Can one climb better than the other? Any tips on keeping them? *Blah*Blah*Blah*Blah*Blah* X3

    Thanks!!
     
  2. JEFFREH

    JEFFREH Administrator

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  3. JEFFREH

    JEFFREH Administrator

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    *Cracks knuckles*

    I feel so bad lately for being brief in my responses and having an inability to get around to some of the postings on the boards, been pretty busy lately and tonight is no different. If I'm cut off before finishing, I'll get back to you or hopefully someone else can chime in with their roachie experiences = )

    There isn't a significant nutritional difference between the two, I'm actually in the works of preparing a draft article for the Feeder Forum that will discuss nutrional analysis of common feeders and the works, along with care and informative articles regarding various feeder roach species...but until those reach completion, I'll address everything you've asked here:

    Based on the following article at Dexter and Debbie's site (and in conjunction with http://blaberus.com) , we can see the nutritional breakdown between the these two species in question, in addition to a comparison with crickets, mealworms, and G. portentosa (Madagascar Hissing Roach). The results show that the nutrional differences between roach species is very minor, and all of them have Excellent protein:fat ratios compared to the other common feeders in the table. Furthermore, roaches tend to have a good meat:shell ratio, which means more weight in the good stuff and less of the undigestable chitin, a complex carbohydrate that the exoskeleton is composed of.
    http://doubleds.org/newfeederpg.html

    I've also gone into some minor detail on this topic in the following thread:

    http://www.reptileboards.com/threads/what-do-you-personally-feed-your-feeders.64028/

    Now, to the species specific questions... An adult leo should not be consuming an adult B. dubia. They probably could, but I wouldn't feed them due to their shear size and the value of adult females in a colony. Unless a colony is raging out of control, its best to feed the nymphs that are of more appropriate size to your herp and adult males; although the latter may still be too large for a leo IMO by the "space between the eyes" rule. That being said, roaches are meant to be bred when sold, hence their online pricing. While they are easy to breed and abundant in the hobby, you never find B. dubia listed at the same prices as say, crickets. Seller's assume your plan is buy once and never buy roaches again, its an investment, which is why adults are so valuable. Very few people can afford buying a few dozen roaches every now and then just to add variety to the diet like they might with silkworms, soldier grubs, superworms, etc etc.

    Shelfordella (Blatta) lateralis are a very different roach than Blaptica dubia. I'll chart it out to answer your specific questions:

    Blaptica dubia
    -Attain up to a 2.5" adult length
    -Require some heat for optimal breeding and growing, in the mid to upper 80's is ideal
    -Take about 5 months to reach maturity, and females may live for an additional 12-18 months (or so)
    -Females are LIVE bearing, and give birth to litters containing approximatel 20-30 babies every month
    -Slower moving, and often "play dead" which can be problematic for sight feeders like Rhacodactylus geckos
    -IMO easier to keep, no substrate required, just a bin and egg flats, food and moisture. I prefer live bearing roaches to those who lay ooths

    B. lateralis
    -Much smaller, about the size crickets
    -Will breed at room temp, but do much better with supplemental heat for optimal results
    -Reach maturity rapidly (within a few months) but don't live quite as long
    -Lay 1-2 Egg Cases (oothecae) every month, each egg case containing anywhere from 20-30 roaches
    -Fast little buggers that are less likely to hide - another common name for them is "Red Runners"
    -Easy to keep, and EXTREMELY rapid reproducers IF you can get their environment right. I've had the best success using a soil/coir substrate and upping humidity. This prevents the egg cases from drying out. This is their primary flaw against B. dubia IMO, laying cases means you need to ensure they don't dry out or get too damp in order for a hatch success.

    Neither species climbs exceptionally well and neither fly nor climb glass but both species have males with wings.

    Time to run! I can address more details when I get the chance; feel free to look over this thread where I give basic species profiles of each roach:
    http://www.reptileboards.com/threads/feeder-roaches-for-sale.64275/

    Keeping them is super simple, I'll include pics of my setups when I get the chance, but I just use a bin, egg flats, and feed them a dry gutload and fresh greens/veggies. Thats it!

    Hope this helps for now! = )
     
    naykid and StikyPaws312 like this.
  4. JEFFREH

    JEFFREH Administrator

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  5. яowan.ω

    яowan.ω Member

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    Thanks a TON! Trying to get my mom over her phobia.
     
  6. JEFFREH

    JEFFREH Administrator

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  7. JEFFREH

    JEFFREH Administrator

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    One strategy that has worked for many a person is to call B. dubia a species of "Beetle." Yes, its wrong to lie...but to the untrained eye nymphs actually resemble large isopod-like-beetle hybrids or something LOL = )

    The turkistans your kind of out of luck, they are pretty much the definition of what a roach would look like, resembling many of the common species found in the US and even the few 'pest' species.

    You could try allowing her to read this thread (minus my bad intentions of telling you to lie to her lmao) or some other literature... It's unfortunate that roaches get such a bad name just because a couple of species like the german roach have developed a name form themself as a pest. The reality is, an extremely small % of roaches are actually pests, just a tiny fraction of all roach species as a whole. Roaches are decomposers by nature and we need them in many ecosystems.

    B. dubia will never have the ability to infest your home, they simply take too long to reach maturity and are truly an inefficient species as a whole. You're more likely to have a cricket infestation honestly... That's not to say they are bad feeders for a breeding colony, but it takes some time to get them established depending on the number you buy, the rate you feed our of the colony, and variables like heat, space, moisture, and food. Crickets truly are faster breeders than many of the roach feeders out there, BUT raoches do all the work themselves with no effort. Crickets smell, chirp, eat their eggs and each other, and breeding them is a HUGE PAIN. With roaches, its so simple: my dog could probably do it if I trained him to grab dog treats and carrots and drop them into the roach bin...the sad thing is I'm not exaggerating, it could probably be done LOL!

    And to touch on the smell thing...The B. dubia bin that I just cleaned contained probably about 20,000 roaches, for nearly a year without any kind of change. Several inches of frass accumulated on the bottom, and the only maintenance that was done was replacing food, moisture, and egg flats as they started to break down. This bin had a completely tolerable smell. The same bin with a meager 500 crickets in it would have cleared the room within a week.

    I also wanted to elaborate on how I keep and breed mine in order to address your original question a little better, I didn't have much time last night to finish.

    You can keep a few thousand mixed dubia in a 10 gallon plastic storage bin - I prefer the kind that are opaque and darker in coloration but if they are kept in a reasonably dark room a clear bin is fine. I tend to avoid aquariums beccause they are expensive, heavy to move around, etc. You do want a type that is completely smooth on the inside, I made the mistake of buying a bin that had just the slightest rough texture (it was a utility, rugged type of bin)and the smallest of newborn nymphs could actually climb up the sides of the bin.

    I then cut out a small section of the lid, approximately 5" x 5" for a 10 gallon, but it really doesn't matter. You can cut out the entire lid other than the sides if you desire. From here, I'll hot glue fine screen mesh for ventilation to cover this hole. Just the cheapy aluminum stuff, you can buy a boatload of it from the hardware store for cheap. I can get a specific brand and size of the mesh if you desire. I'll then using packaging tape to reinforce the screen on the lid. I'll try to get a picture up fairly soon for a visual example.

    I use no substrate for B. dubia, and I place several pieces of egg flat in vertically. Its more instinctual to stack them horizontally on top of one another, but vertically is the way to go. This allows maximum use of surface area for the roaches, and their frass and shed skins can fall to the bottom where they will accumulate to essentially form a substrate. Their frass is sterile and will not harm you or them (their strangely quite clean creatures despite their bad rap). I will say this, some people (myself included) are mildy allergic to a protein in the shed skins of B. dubia and G. portentosa. Nothing severe; but sometimes during cleaning I will opt to wear a mask because I begin to sneeze and my eyes water. This is not typical, and I look completely past it because the benefits of them outweigh this minor detail a million fold, but figured I'd note it. It's not bad at all, and only happens during cleaning when everything gets stirred up(once every 6 months to a year lol). While we're on the toopic, adult males and females do have tiny barbs on their legs which can cause dermal irritation in some people when they crawl on you...again... not major at all. I'd hope most people expect it, and they are not nearly as spiky as my adult hissers and peppered roaches which are excellent species for handling.

    Anywho...back on topic. I fill nearly the entire bin with these flats, leaving only enough space either in the middle or on one side for food dishes. You could actually fill the entire thing with flats and just have the dishes sit on top of them, its really up to you. Honestly I don't even know why I'm going into detail on this... its literally as simple as this statement I mentioned earlier LOL:
    I dump veggies and greens on top of them a couple of times a week for a moisture source, and refill dishes of gry gutload as needed. I also keep a small dish of water crystals in there at all times too just in case anyone gets thirsty between salad offerings, buts its not necessary = )
     
  8. JEFFREH

    JEFFREH Administrator

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  9. яowan.ω

    яowan.ω Member

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    Awesome. X3 Even I could pull this off.
     
  10. JEFFREH

    JEFFREH Administrator

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  11. Cammy

    Cammy ReptileBoards Addict

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    Hehehehehehehehe feeder beetles >:3
     
  12. JEFFREH

    JEFFREH Administrator

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    Shhh... no one ever has to know while they are hidden away under your desk in a dark bin :3

    Rowan, or anyone else of that matter, I could always send you a sample of some B. dubia nymphs to try out for free if you decide you'd like to give em a go; just to ensure the leo takes well to them. Might even give mother bear a chance to see that a few in the house aren't causing any problems lol >; )
     
  13. яowan.ω

    яowan.ω Member

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    Sorry, didn't realize you had replied. ^^"
    I would, but we're staying with a family friend till mid/late-September (we have to move to MO for my Dad's new job). Thanks anyways!! I might take you up on that when we move out. How much would shipping be to St. Louis?
     
  14. Cookie17

    Cookie17 HOTM Winner June

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    Don't dubias burrow? I know turki's don't but I thought dubias do burrow. Which is a problem for me and my anole seeing as how she has 1.5-2" of soil in her enclo! She won't eat them anyways. (She eats mealworms out of a dish, but will not touch the dubias. So I am stuck with having crickets and roaches, but I have stopped trying to bred crickets, plus I can get 18 crickets for $0.99 which should last me two weeks if none die (which they obviously do). I also have to tape construction paper to my aquarium to give them darkness XD i will do that tomorrow
     
  15. JEFFREH

    JEFFREH Administrator

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    B. dubia and E. posticus will readily burrow, although dubia tend to just lightly cover theirselves and sit very still for prolonged periods of time.
     

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