Disinfecting Tank [Pic Heavy, Some Graphic Content]

So, I've been wanting to post a few things since I got back from DC about 3 weeks ago now, but I've been busy with school ending and summer starting. I still do want to post DC trip pics, but I'll have to when I have time and more important manners are taken care of.
Well, I'm currently in the process of disinfecting the 18x18x18 tank my anole/frog are in. I put Rhubarb in an extra small utility tank I had with a few plants and a hide and the frog in my large cricket keeper(which I took the tubes out of and covered/taped up the holes for the tubes). I now have the remaining crickets I have in my small one(it's good to have extras!). Now I'll get into the pressing matter...so, I could've put the frog and anole together in the smaller tank while I'm just cleaning out their bigger one and they're used to being together/don't seem to mind eachother. The issue is..Rhubarb hasn't been doing well and I really probably should have completely cleaned this out sooner, but now that school's out I have much more time to. I still would, about every month, clean off the plants/decor and change some of the bedding. Though, I didn't change out the bedding completely every time-that's just every few months. I am now completely changing the bedding/cleaning the tank with a diluted bleach spray(and letting it dry for a day or so)/and soaking the plants/decor. I did put some of the plants/decor with them in their small tanks, so they feel somewhat at home.

Anyways, I keep getting sidetracked
The problem with Rhubarb is(well started with)his eyes again about a week ago. The left one was bad and swollen some time ago and I tried to flush it, it seemed to go away, but it had come back and I wasn't sure what to do..then it happened to his right one. So, he's practically blind I will post pics as soon as I can..hopefully later today. Well, my Dad was doing some research online and also looking at it from his medical view(he's a paramedic). He made a spray with amoxicillin and sprayed the small tank he's in and him some with it. I hope it works-we're just trying it to save him and it seems like the best option right now my Dad tried to dose it the best from his knowledge. It seems he now has a URI too(which is what amoxicillin is meant for)that just formed in the last few days, since he's been gaping his mouth.(though, he could've had it longer and that's what's been causing the eye problems too possibly?) He also hasn't been eating much, so I did get him to eat a mealworm by sort of stuffing it in his mouth once a few days ago, but that's it.
The good side(in a way)is the frog doesn't seem to have any problems! She's actually doing too well in some ways..I'm worried about how fat she's gotten! Since I didn't realize at first that Rhubarb wasn't eating much and the food was still eaten, she's pretty much been eating it all. (I'll post pics of her soon too and let me know if she should go on a diet of somesort I guess?)

It's also good that Izo's been doing great and growing every day! I'm almost positive now she's a girl. And the gray tree frog is very well also, she's pretty fat, but not to a point she's too fat like the other. I also take her out to feed her, so I give her as much as I think she needs-and she'll eat as much as I give
Also, I know the best option is to take him to the Vet, but we really cannot. The closest one is still about 50 miles away and it's pretty overpriced, we already are running low on money with gas prices and having to buy food for them and sometimes supplies often. I did contact the vet to try to see if there's anything we could do-they told us what they would do if we brought him in, which is initial exam/eye drops to see if there's debris(though I'm pretty sure now there isn't)/and maybe some ointment or antibiotics. They wouldn't disclose much info on how to help him, to save their business I'm sure, since that's what they do. I know they probably then would want the money for knowing what to do and doing it, but if they really cared about the animals, you would think they would try to help in any way?

Pics still coming soon...Here they are!:

His eye...

Small tank he's currently in

Mouth gaping that just started today(and the white on him is calcium powder)



Large Cricket Keeper frog's currently in

Tank all clean and drying(odd to see it empty!)

From about a week ago I think, when Rhubarb shed his face and you can see the eyes are darker-though they still shed.


Fat Frog^^(too fat?)

You can sort of see how he's skinny by the tail now...and this is when I was trying to get him to eat by the mealworm dish.

So, this post is obviously about more than me just disinfecting the tank-it's mostly about why I am and an update in a way...I wasn't sure in what forum to put this in, but I did enclosures, since the title is implying it's more about me cleaning mine. I did put on my status, since I couldn't figure out how to change the title, that this was "pic heavy" and "graphic"(since I'm thinking the infected eyes could be considered that by some people). So, if any administraters want to put those in the title or move it to a better forum-that's good

 

To me it looks as if your little one has an eye infection. The URI is possible, but I think his eyes are the biggest problem right now. Disinfecting the tank entirely is a good idea to start. What type of substrate are you using? I have found (from my internship) that some of the organic barks/soils made for reptiles may still cause damage if ever caught in their eyes. I saw a leopard gecko in a few days ago with the exact same problems, eyes swollen, lethargic, not eating much, etc. Her eyes were much worse, but I have to say the similarities are very ironic.

I would soak him in a water bath for about 10 minutes in a small, clean tupperware container if you're able to. Only fill it enough to cover his body and make sure the H2O is body temperature first. Watch to see if he tries to dip his head in the water (they will often do this with eye infections in order to help themselves clear out any debris or caught dead skin).

If none of this works, or he gets any worse I would recommend a vet trip :/. If he can't see he isn't going to want to eat, and hand-feeding will become very tedious. He may lose his appetite entirely if his eyes become any worse. :/ The vet will most likely charge you for an examination, remove any debris (or leftover skin, looks like that may be part of the problem to based on your pics), and prescribe antibiotic drops specifically for anoles.

Hate to give you bad news, but I'm learning a lot from my Veterinary internship, and I hope this helps!!

- ELF

 

Also, amoxi is great for infections, and may help with your little one - but is often very uneffective unless used in combination with aminoglycosides (your father will probably understand that more lol big words!). Also, your little guys dosage of amoxi would be VERY SMALL only 22 mg/kg by mouth, in order to be truly effective.

Of course using to help disinfect the tank may be a good idea to remove any bacteria.

- ELF

 

It pains me to say this knowing how difficult it is for you to obtain veterinary assistance, but I think Rhubarb needs some additional help... I'm with ELF if things get any worse.

It looks like you have separated Rhubarb into his own quarantine enclosure - keep it spotless, keep him separated. Just throw paper towel on the bottom to be changed frequently and be sure to change his water at least daily. Have you ensured that his temperatures are ideal? And the UVB source is still going strong?

In addition to ELF's suggestions, you can also try to rinse the eye with saline solution to clear any foreign material.

I'm actually a little nervous about the Amoxicillin - while it is generally a pretty safe and useful bacteriocide, there are increasing numbers of bacteria with B-lactamases (and 'Penicillinases') that will render the antibiotic completely useless. We also do not know whether this is a bacterial infection or a viral infection; if viral the antibiotic will be completely useless. This should be understood for the possible RI you are concerned about as well- without a culture and sensitivity test we cannot be sure what strain or what pathogen is involved and we need this information to make a proper treatment.

ELF: Just out of curiosity, do you know why Aminoglycosides should be used in conjunction with Amox? I can understand having a bacteriostat cover the bases for those bacteria that are not prone to B-lactam antibiotics but I wouldn't imagine the two drugs having a synergistic effect with on one another? (This is a serious question, not trying to flame) = )

 

Well, thanks guys for the help. The sad thing is I know there's not much I can do now and I'm trying to do what I can-we would love to take him to a vet, but let's just say it's now virtually impossible with our situation...if some miracle happened where a friend could drive us there and some could be payed for-that would be great, but just getting him there-the chances are very slim.

I will do everything you've suggested-soak him in the water first, and then the rest. It will be easier then it would've been before to do it, since I can pick him up now(without him being able to see..).

Could it also possibly be a parasite I'd like to know?
I know you always have to suggest going to the vet, since they ultimately will do the best job, but as mentioned multiple times, it's much too diffficult for us right now
And I do realize the situation and chances for him at this point, but I'd still like to do all I can to save him.

 

So, I just wanted to put that I got him to eat some more! A mealworm and some wax worms(which will hopefully fatten him up some). Since he took those well, I'm going to try to administer the antibiotic by mouth and I hope it works! But, it this point-things seem better at least
I did try to soak him, but he avoided the water mostly(he was in a small "critter keeper" and climbed the sides).
And I'm probably going to start getting the tank re-setup again and hopefully put the frog in there, since she's not liking not having as much space in her small cage. How long should I wait to put him in there? When he starts getting better? I really don't want to keep him in the small tank too long.
I'm also planning on getting some live plants-at least a Pothos to start, I'll keep some of the plastic/silk ones in there, but I want it to be more natural now.

 

JEFFREH - the reason for my mention of the aminoglycosides used in conjunction with amoxi is because amoxi is often ineffective in reptiles unless used in combination with a medication such as say Amikacin (aminoglycoside). This information can be found in the Merck Veterinary Handbook and/or on this website - http://www.anapsid.org/resources/rxdose.html#antibiotics under the Antibiotics section.

Lizardgurl87 - I would keep your little one isolated and continue attempting water baths once a day or every other day for about 5 days at least. I would disinfect his quarantine "home" daily if you are able to to keep any growing bacteria at bay. If you are truly unable to take him to the vet I would attempt contacting your local animal shelter and seeing if they have any available antibiotic eye drops (for reptiles) that have been recently expired (they'll probably still work for you). If he doesn't open his eyes in the next few days, I would attempt to VERY CAREFULLY clean his eyes with a CLEAN gauze pad and/or cotton swabs (only if you are comfortable with it!!). He could have just had a really hard shed and gotten some skin caught up in there.

Looks like you are doing your very best, and I feel your pain! Having a sick little one and no vet money is so freaking frustrating!!

- ELF

 

I also doubt that what you are dealing with is parasitic unless you've had him for a very short period of time and/or he has been exposed to other animals daily for any amount of time.

- ELF

 

Also! Quick question, is your little anole on any sort of Calcium or Vitamin A supplements?

 

What do you mean by supplements? I would often coat his food in calcium(a few times a week)and vitamin powder(about once a week). I tried to feed him a cricket with calcium on it recently, but he seemed to not like the taste now or something-though he had just eaten and could've been full.

I will see if there's any animal shelter that might have some-though, I have seen at some pet stores these eye drops, though they're more for turtles it says. (http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2754876) (http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2752624)
Could those possibly work?
Thanks for everything again You've been helpful

 

I would attempt coating any of his food with a calcium supplement every other feeding at least, and as for the vitamin powder (if he'll only eat live food) I would recommend attempting to coat his food with ONLY the vitamin powder every other week. Never use the 2 powders in the same feeding however.

Vitamin A is great to help with shedding and skin conditions, which is found in the vitamin powder. The calcium he generally needs on a daily basis, especially if using crickets to feed, because they are very low in calcium which is also severely needed in a reptile's diet.

About the eye drops - I'm not 100% about those, you may be able to call the pet store or your local vet and explain to them the ingredients in the second link posted (the zoomed product) to see if it is safe for anoles. The first link seems to be some sort of sterile eye wash only, which is unnecessary unless you are unable to soak your little one.

I work next Friday, and will be able to ask my vets what they think about the products if you are unable to get any info from you vet/pet store .

Hope this helps, hang in there? Is he still eating for you?

- ELF

 

I do know to not coat with both in a same feeding of course, but thanks.
He's not doing as good with eating crickets, I've just been getting him to eat mealworms & mostly waxworms the last few days. I know the wax worms are high in nutrients, calcium, and fat-so, I'm trying to watch how many of those he has. Though, they're easier for him to eat and he does need to fatten up some, since he's not been eating much.
And when you said- "If he'll only eat live food" -what do you mean? I'm sure I could get him to eat some that aren't alive and I know there is canned food for them, but I've always heard it's not as good-since it's not fresh and has preservatives and such. I do have some Anole Food by Zoo Med, which is just dead, dried fruit flies coated in powder and he never ate it much. I suppose I could put a dish of it in, it may actually have some extra vitamins or something in it..I'll get a link. (http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2752593)
I will try to contact an exotic vet-if I can find a good one-about the eye drops. I live in a rural area, so even going to the petstore is a haul-the closest vet is even more so(and that's just for "normal" pets). I have found a list of the one's in Ohio and I'll try to get one that's closer to me

 

The reason I questioned the live food is only because certain pelleted foods contain multivitamins and I wouldn't want you to OD your little guy on vitamin A or calcium lol. Live food is fine - I would recommend continuing with the meal and wax worms and grab some multivitamin powder/calcium powder if you can; then apply to the food as I stated in the last message. It will be really good nutrition for him, and will certainly do nothing but help skin problems which may be what this guy has going on.

If I get an opportunity today I will ask my vets at my "normal" (non-exotic) job, but they may not know the answer to the eye drop question either =/.

Have you been able to soak the little guy? If so, how does he tolerate it/have you noticed him dipping his head UNDER water?

- ELF

 

I have found a product online that may be of used to you ONLY if you are able to get your little one to open his eyes...

If you can get his eyes open, there is an ointment that can be found here http://www.bug-de-lite.com/Products Page.html called "Terramycin." (first product listed) This drug is safe for use in reptiles; it will be ineffective, however if you are unable to apply the ointment directly to his eyes (must penetrate underneath eyelids/skin of eyes where the true infection lies. I would recommend using it only every other day for now until we know if it seems to be helping or not if you are able to apply it to his eyes =).

Hope this helps!

- ELF

 

I did try to soak him a few days ago and I'm going to soon again today. He wasn't trying to dip his head in at all and was trying to stay away from the water by crawling up the sides. He was in a small "kritter keeper". I tried to push him down some, but the most he got covered in water was his tail and his lower body. The container did have a lid with slits in it, so we drained out the water through the top with him in it-making him still get a quick bath.

I will try to call someone about the eye drops today too-my dad suggested to call Zoo Med first and see if they would know, they probably will have a good idea, since they make the product.(I'd hope they would lol)

And, thanks a lot for that link! It's nice to know there's a website like that with all those medical supplies and stuff for reptiles. We will for sure try to get some of that ointment, even just to have around in case something happens-since it says it can help with the eye infections as well as skin problems. Hopefully his eyes will open enough to use it, it seemed to me the swelling was going down earlier

Also, quick question: What kind of water should we use for soaking? We used distilled last time, since my dad said it was more sterile. I thought using just the normal water I use to spray/water him would be fine though(I get it in gallon jugs at Walmart, their brand Spring water)

 

So, I just contacted Zoo Med and they said I could use it, but it wouldn't help with the infection, it's pretty much just a sterile wash with vitamins. It does have vitamin A though, which you said could help, so what do you think? It may help to get him to open his eye at least, so I could then put the ointment in.

 

You can try it certainly for starters! See if it helps at all. I would also recommend very softly trying to wipe his eyes with a gauze pad or cotton swab before applying anything to his eyes in order to remove any skin/bacteria before introducing the drops. I would still recommend a sterile environment to live in and daily water baths if they are at all possible. As for the water bath I would recommend distilled water, spring water, well water, and/or dechlorinated water - chlorine may be sensitive on his skin and a lot of tap water contains chlorine.... so the water you normally use should be fine, I would attempt to warm it a bit in the microwave first and then testing it on your skin to make sure it is around "body temperature" a.k.a. not too hot for you yourself to touch should be fine for him.

Glad to hear the swelling seems to be going down!

Keep me updated, I go back to the exotic vet tomorrow AM and might be able to get you some more information then.

- ELF

 

So, the bath today went pretty well! We used distilled again, we'll probably just go with that for baths now. It was pretty cold at first to the touch, so my dad did warm it in the microwave, and since it was warmer, he stayed in it! He was pretty much completely summersed, except for his head and he wasn't trying to dip it still.
I will try to wipe at his eyes with a cotton ball or Q-tip tomorrow then also.

Thanks again for everything! You've been very helpful, I'm sure you do a great job at the vet's too! And are you like training to be a vet or vet tech then by interning? Is the interning in a way like volunteering then? I assumed you've completed school or are in it.
I'd just like to know, since that is a field that I might like to get into It's interesting and it would be nice to help all the animals and at least know what to do, like you do.

 

Great news that he enjoyed his water bath a bit more this time . Let me know how the cotton swabbing/Q-tip swab goes .

I'm training to become a Licensed Veterinary Technician specializing in exotics (specifically reptiles & amphibians.) That is why I am interning, to learn more and get further involved in the field. =). I have 2 semesters left in school and then must take my national board testing and if I pass all of which I will be an L.V.T. .

- ELF

 

I will make sure to keep you updated on how everything is
And, I forgot to add, he did eat a cricket today! It was injured and that's why I fed it to him, since it couldn't jump around like they normally will-sometimes they're too fast for my leo! Though, my gray tree frog will always eat them up, well whatever I give her she'll try to eat! Have you seen a gray tree frog eat? It's pretty crazy and even in a frog book I have they're noted as willing eaters or something like that lol!

That's really cool that's what career you've chosen! When I was younger, I always wanted to be a vet, but now I realize you'd have to operate and see all these animals in pain, which I might not like. Though, being able to help them would be great! Except, those times you can't do much or you have to euthenize them...though, I'd say it would still be more rewarding than not
So, when did you get interested in exotics and such? When I was younger, I wouldn't have known about keeping them as pets as much and I just wanted to work on more common pets(since that's what I knew of). Though, only in the past few years-more so in the past year-I've become very interested in exotics(especially reptiles & amphibians like you said)and I've learned all this info on how to keep them and about them from just researching "care sheets" and a lot from people's knowledge on this site also. Have you ever been to a reptile show? I went to my first one last October(and have gone back a few times), when I got my leo. I would have never thought to go to such a thing until I heard people talking about them on here and I was fortunate to find that there's one pretty close to me. I have a few previous posts from them with pics. Well, it's very cool to see what all they have and I can converse with people there and understand pretty much it all now! And it's fun to tell about the pets you have.

Well, I'm getting sidetracked I'll often ramble on and have one topic lead to another, even online lol-I do like getting to know people sometimes and it's cool when you share common interests.