Hey guys, I'm new to the forum. Not very new to the crested scene though. I have kept crested as pets in the past. I now have one that I consider to be a pet and a member of the family. And it came to mind the other day that I should go for breeding these guys. Solely for the enjoyment of experimenting with colors and morphs, while maybe getting a little bit of profit along the way. (Fat chance.) So for starters, the one female I have right now is one of Anthony Caponetto's Lavender Black & Cream pinstripes. Part of the Neo Line. A partial pinner, Yoshi. 33 grams (fattening her up right now trying to bump her up to 40g by March) , approx 3 yrs old, and really laid back. Fired Down. Fired-Up. I am hoping to find a full pinstripe male or at least a lavender male. Going to hold back the ones with awesome color as well as full pins. I have been eyeing more of AC's listed males for sale. Here are the one's I am thinking about purchasing. Another project I would like to call Project KeyLime, is something that I know a lot of you are gonna disagree with. A so-called flame that appears to me to be more of a green or olive is going to be my main project. I am going to be receiving this male pretty soon, hopefully before the end of August. I am having a really hard time finding a female to pair him with. I really need some helpful advice on this one. I am working to get a red female. Like, a really REALLY red female. I kind of found one. Just have to gather funds for it. But it is currently unsexed. So I am literally crossing my fingers for it to be female. I have a cream or blonde male that I am getting from an aquaintence of mine in gainesville. Really excited about him Point is, I am going to be breeding out of my apartment. Which is totally okay, but slightly crazy. So I can't breed a massive amount of cresteds, so this is going to take a lot of time and accuracy to execute what I want. I realize how tricky and how unreliable breeding these geckos can be - because you never know what is going to pop out of those eggs, other than of course, a crested gecko. And in order to breed these out I may have to breed one pair at a time one year after another so that I don't end up with too many geckos at one time. Soon after the first breeding pair mate I will be creating a website. Going to make it as resourceful as possible for other rhaco-hobbyists. I am looking forward to making it. Just looking for some support, some input, and a lot of advice! I am probably in over my head. But I can live with that.
Hello! I don't know much about cresties beyond basic care, so I don't have any advice as far as your breeding project goes. However, it sounds like you are going into it with the right attitude, i.e. wanting to do it for fun and knowing the profit margin is low. Hopefully Jeff will get back to you on this when he gets back from out of town; he used to breed cresties so he may have some tips and opinions for you. Anyways, I just wanted to welcome you to the forum and encourage you to keep sharing pictures. We're pretty fond of pictures here, haha. Well, nice to meet you and I look forward to your future posts. =D
First off, welcome to the forums! Glad to have you here = ) Personally, I like all of your ideas; and what it really boils down to is what you really appreciate in the animals and what YOU want to do with your projects. It sounds to me like your head is in the right place doing this for enjoyment - it's fun being able to mix and match morphs in hopes to create something fantastic. This is partly what drew me to the crested and ball python world to begin with; these are debatably the most polychromatic species in the trade and the possibilities are virtually endless. Something else I like is that is that it appears all of your animals have at least average to above average structure in their crests. It's kind of a pet peeve of mine to see geckos with poor structure, they are called "crested" geckos for a reason afterall . Furthermore, I like the ideas of your projects. You have some very nice starting breeding stock to start with and the animals you are considering purchasing certainly will compliment those you intend to pair with. I love the pinstripes and lavenders and frankly so do most hobbyists, its a safe bet for both a personal project AND for creating babies that people will want to buy. A big problem with people wanting to get in the breeding scene is not investing in the right stock; people want to breed their animals but you have to consider that most selling of morphs will be done online. This means that anything is going to have a charge of $35-$45 just for shipping, so anything being produced needs to have some value to it or else you'll essentially be giving it away for free. No one is going to want to pay $40 plus $40 shipping for a simple buckskin male, plain and simple. I'm a huge, HUGE advocate for quality over quantity, so I believe your restrictions in the apartment may actually be a good thing. You won't be over your head with mouths to feed, poo to clean, and water to change and it will allow you to buy prime stock and focus on specific projects that you enjoy most whilte appreciating the individual needs of each gecko. As for your KeyLime project, that male is stunning. Sure, people will get nitty gritty and argue that he isn't truly "green." But renowned breeder Mathew Parks from PangeaReptile had a Green Fire line with some great animals back in the day... They LOOK greenish to me, so call it whatever you choose even if a crested can't truly be green. Do be careful making morph names, though. I like the idea of calling your project "KeyLime" but be weary marketing them as a new morph known as the KeyLime. You can run into trouble and controversy, and will confuse newer hobbyists. It's like the Citrus line of bearded dragon - it actually came from animals purchased from Kevin Dunnes Sunburst line and simply renamed. We don't need a dozen different names for the same kind of animal - I'd sell the babies as those from your "KeyLime" project but specifically note that they are olive fires or whatever their true color + patterning may be. Just my $0.02! = ) Breeding these guys is a fun an rewarding experience; there is just nothing like watching that first clutch of eggs hatch into beautiful little babies = ) You'll have a great time, and I think you'll be a great breeder who has done their research and is doing it for the right reasons. Feel free to ask any specific questions about your projects, care, or breeding in general! We have a lot of experienced Rhac keepers here... I like your username btw =P LOL!
Jeff let me start off by saying that I feel so much better having heard what you had to say about my project ideas. I'm glad that you approve of the olive flame male and the term "key lime" when naming a project. I had been a little bit worried about not trying to name or falsely "discover" or rename morphs and getting into issues with that. I had posted this @ pangea forums and didn't get as supportive/informational feedback. So for that I truly thank you. I didn't get BAD feedback but, just had some people question my efforts of actually making olive an attractive color. My boyfriend studied graphic design and so I am hoping that he will be able to create an awesome website for my small breeding op. I hope you right about breeding out of my apartment to serve me well. I was having some minor doubts about my capabilities but, I think If i stick to one female per season, it won't be nearly as painful as breeding multiple females per season. I don't plan on housing my female with a male for more than 1-3 days depending on if they are getting along well and above all their safety. I'm sure this time frame will be enough and hopefully somewhat control the amount of eggs laid. I agree with you on some cresteds not being very crest-y. And I'm happy to inform you that, although the males I had chosen previously were exceptional. I had found an epic male to breed to my female. This is "Neo Jr" he comes from the same lines as my female, but is almost identical to the original Neo. Anthony Caponetto spotted him on my facebook after I had posted him in my future project breeders album and said "hey that looks a lot like Neo! Must be a great grandson!" I found him after responding to an ad for him posted a year ago and I was told he had been traded off. I didn't find out until later that night that I had been emailing his current owners back and forth about any available accomodations to my project plans, and they sent me a photo of this guy! The same exact one Fate clearly brought us together. He's more than what I had been hoping for I am so excited to have him. Soon he will be mine he is currently on hold. I cannot wait to see the babies he throws for me! Even if I wait a long while to breed him, I'm very excited to have him as part of my building collection.
Here are some more photos of the green flame male under natural lighting. ^ Fired Down. Notice he isn't the usual brown color when he's fired down. Fired up. A little darker but not that overly dark olive color. This guy I'm super excited about. I had seen the photos of pangea's olive fire line but I am anticipating for some unsexed juvies of that line to bring on board. I just hope they come around soon! <3 This guy needs a girlfriend just as pretty as he is. Preferably with more structure and color.
Firstly, let me just say that my jaw literally dropped upon seeing that boy! He is absolutely gorgeous, definitely a Neo Jr indeed! I'd say whoever you pair him up with will throw some killer offspring, and the story of your fate is just too cool = ) Best of luck to you with your projects! I think it will prove to be a difficult task finding a lady to match up with your olive male there, but when the day comes where he has the right lady to compliment him I think your going to end up with some awesome babies. Not everyone may agree on the coloration (technically, of course) but I think anyone can appreciate a crested that has such a unique look. He's definitely one of the more "green" olives I've seen in my day. And as for your apartment situation, you'll get a good handle on what you can accomodate pretty quickly and I think a small breeding group is more than possible to maintain comfortably. I definitely think it will be a good idea to just start with one female for the season to get your bearings and determine how things play out for you with time constraints, space, money, and ability to sell. Please keep us posted on things! Its refreshing to see someone who is taking the time to develop projects and is actually giving thought to what the future holds. Breeding is a rewarding experience, and so many people want to be a part of it, but the sad reality is it takes preparation and is often more difficult than many newer keepers anticipate. Best of luck to you!
Thanks so much Jeff! I am more confident now than I was earlier today. I am happy to have spoken to you about my future projects and even happier to have such a great response from you. Neo Jr is going to be the great addition to my developing crestie clan and I am confident that he will help me learn and grow into an experienced hobbyist. I am sure Yoshi will enjoy his company as well hopefully this will be a good first time for her. And YES it is def going to take me a minute to find a beautiful greeny for my male. Your confidence reassures me that the wait will be more than worth it you are the first to tell me to continue with this male and take advantage of his features and appreciate them. Everyone else has said "I think you could do better," or "olive is a muggy color and won't sell," but for some reason I felt inside that I have to have this guy. He has something special.
Here is an olive female I am looking at. I will be getting more pictures. Her crests aren't as defined as I would like them to be and spots on other morphs is kind of a pet peeve of mine but I love her color. She's currently gravid and he is selling her gravid. I asked for some photos of her mate and of her offspring and more photos of her as well. And another female that I am praying to get is beyond exceptional. Absolutely awesome. But I have been told that she won't be cheap and she bought this female for $250.. I have asked how much exactly and I am waiting on a response. Hopefully I will be able to afford it. But she is a full pinstripe and she has beautiful structure.
More photos of the gravid female and a photo of her mate.. Her mate ~ SPOTTTTTS.. Her mate has nice coloration but I am afraid of having to keep a herd of spotted babies that I don't really want lol.. Hopefully somewhere in that mix of hatchlings there is a non-spotted crestie.. Nothing against dalmations but I just have issues when an awesome morph also has a team of spots on it. Even my female has spots and it doesn't bother me nearly as much but this is like a dal+super dal pair.. Soooo not so sure yet. BUT She is awesome and her mate has great crests and awesome color.. Help me out here Jeff lol
I like to see that you know exactly what you like and want to produce; there is nothing wrong with setting standards! It's actually pretty funny you bring up the dalmation thing: while I enjoy them in their own right, I'm a big fan of of crisp, clean coloration/patterning and sometimes the dalmation spots can throw that off IMO. It's all personal opinion really, funny how everyone can have such different preferences on morphs. I recall a poll being made several years back on Anthony's site regarding everyone's favorite morph/combos and the results seemed pretty well mixed. I'm personally a big fan or high contrast black and white harly's over just about anything else, but there are people who take reds, creamsickles, or tigers over these any day. Gotta love this species, so many colors and combinations for everyone! = ) Both of these girls look like excellent options for your male - you weren't joking when you said it would take you a "minute" to find the girl LOL! It's hard to tell by the picture, but I have to agree that the second female is exceptional in every way. Good coloartion, nice clean patterning, and good structure to boot! The olive gravid female is a nice match as well, her crest structure isn't too hateful and some people really go for that exaggerated look (again with the preferences). Where she lacks in quantity of crests, she does have some nice sized ones at the base of her neck jotting out there and her mate appears to have phenominal crests. I think offspring from this pair (with the seller's male) would have some potential with all that cream patterning going on in the both of them, although like you said, dally spots may be inevitable. She does have good olive coloration in some photos just like your male - hopefully with selective breeding like you are doing this can be refined with time to be more and more "green" all of the time rather than when just fired up or down. Regardless, I really like the project idea and you are definitely getting some good finds! My experience has always shown to go with your gut instinct and don't be afraid to drop a little extra cash on an animal you really desire. These guys live a long time, and its worth the extra $$ sometimes knowing that you will be enjoying the animal for so long - not to mention the benefits in a breeding project as well.
Wow Jeff you have some really good timing The owner of the second female said she is willing to let her go alone for $225 but is offering her daughter and a male with her for $300. I do not have this kind of money this second but i had asked her if she is willing to put on any holds. She also mentioned she doesn't wish to ship the way the weather is now, so holding may be a good option for her until weather permits. I am waiting for a reply as we speak. Lol as for the first female, yes the dal spots are very much likely to come out of her offspring. I just don't feel like it would be a very good start on my projects lol I will have a bunch of extra geckos that might be difficult to rehome and I don't feel comfortable limiting my space for hatchlings I have no interest in working with. So I had asked if they wouldn't mind if I could hold her until she is no longer gravid and then bring her home. We will see what they say! Lol I didn't think I would find them so quickly I am hunting for olives everyday contacting everyone I see even owning an olive just in hopes that they may have "the one".
Just figured I'd chime in here because you mentioned the possibility of not finding homes for all of the offspring.... that's a major concern that I don't think a lot of people realize - if you don't find homes for them or rather, if people don't want to purchase your geckos when they are young, you are going to have to have the ability to house and care for them properly for the duration of their lives or at least until you CAN sell them.... That is by far the biggest concern that I have when I hear people starting breeding projects for fun. I see so many people starting a crestie or leo breeding project and don't realize how many hatchlings they get and how fast they grow up! I'm glad that you've thought about this and I have to commend you for having the responsibility to think about what will happen with the hatchlings when they are all here, definitely starting with one female is your best bet and see what you can handle from there It's a great experience and it's very rewarding, but it's also a big responsibility and you definitely don't make back all your money! Lol. But with that said I think you are going to have some great breeding stock and have the right idea going into all this. Good luck and keep us posted! Oh! And if you don't think you could "get rid of" the little dalmatian hatchlings I'd be more than happy to help you out there....
Thank you for your concern Lauren. Yeah it is one of my worries too. I feel that breeding one female at a time may reduce the amount of anxiety. Honestly when it comes to holdbacks I may only keep one or two of the 12 or 16 hatchlings that I may find myself with. So hopefully by doing that I can reduce the risk of having too many at one time. Having a website and various accounts on different forums and using iherp may help me out. A coworker of mines knows a guy who collects and sells exotics, so that may also be another option for me. And not to mention the few reptiles conventions here in FL. I think it'd be kind of fun to have my own vendor. I may go with the Affie trio. Its a lot of money but for three high quality breeders, I think that is a bargain. It will jumpstart my plans for creating a successful olive project, and I am sure I can find better for cheaper when it comes to that gravid female, or better yet make a cleaner more refined version of that. Thank you for responding Lauren, any advice or suggestions are greatly appreciated.
What I do when selling animals is ask for a non-refundable deposit from the buyer if they wish to hold, usually about 20% of the animal value or more if they can afford it. It gives the seller confidence that you will not back out on the sale and ensures that the animal(s) are yours. You can always lay down a deposit and run the option of a payment plan by the seller to give you some time to pay off the animals as well. You may already know this or have done this, but I figure I'd throw it out there just in case! This heat has been hurting me as well; I have a few animals that I've been holding for almost 5 weeks now due to this heat in the midwest. Heat is an even bigger concern with Rhacs due to their relative intolerance for warmer temperatures... I think you'll be able to work things out nicely with the seller to get the animal(s) paid off and still ensure they are shipped when things cool down for their safety = ) If you can afford it (both cost and space) then I'd say that trio sounds quite reasonable at essentially $100 a pop. If the daughter proves to be anything like momma, you will have a heck of a nice group of olives. And I definitely agree with Lauren, I commend your research and forward planning for the breeding and project ideas. Too many people think they will be able to sell their babies as soon as they reach 6 weeks, but us veterans know that this is only true in fairy tales and for big time breeders like AC where people are waiting to jump on a newborn from a particular project as soon as its available. Expect to have to care for each baby for several months before making a sale... if things go well with your projects and you get your name out there with some positive feedback, it does get a little easier too!
Yup non-refundable deposits and payment plans are what I am doing to make this a little bit easier on myself i am thankful that these breeders are comfortable with this option. After this trio my search for other morphs of cresties is going to have to relax until I move to a bigger place. Or until I have enough room or get rid of some to make room for future breeders and holdbacks. As a first timer - i will find it difficult to even come up with a price for babies because I won't be able to tell what morph or color it's going to be until it's half-way grown! These guys are kinda tough to sum up when they are babies. I am going to try my best to make these guys exceptional. I think that so far, I have a great team I am confident in their ability to produce great babies. I'm so excited to start! I'm going to be frequenting to target for the next few months buying plastic storage bins like crazy. My closet is going to be full of cresties. I gotta find a way to cool it down in there. I was looking at those chillows on ebay but i doubt they would be cool enough. My a/c doesn't reach my closet very easily. Next option is an electric fan. I think if I place a mesh screen on the front of the containers that it will reach them better and be able to lower the temps a bit. I will have to do some testing before making up my mind on what works best.
