1 or 2 to a tank?

Discussion in 'Other Colubrids' started by guitrage, Oct 18, 2004.

  1. natashaccollins

    natashaccollins Member

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    That is very ture Venzor, I was unlucky though because the first set of corns I owned I kept together and one day one decided to bite the other and I had to get them apart with a coat ahnger. So ever since I have only put snakes together when I was time to breed. I don't want the same thing happening again becuae I might not be so lucky.
     
  2. JEFFREH

    JEFFREH Administrator

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  3. wideglide

    wideglide Well-Known Member

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    I'd be interested to see exactly what text it is you're referring to. Please point it out and then I'll show you where this thread began to turn negative.

    This is a perfect example why it is suggested these snakes are not kept together. If they had never been kept together in the first place one would have not got bitten. This also is a situation that sounds like it could have been worse and you say you were unlucky but I'm more inclined to say you were lucky that one of your corns didn't end up dying. Venzor and joey, taking this into consideration, why would anyone with knowledge of this type of thing happening ever suggest these snakes be kept together? Does that sound like responsible advice to give to anyone who would come here seeking help? Just because there's 5 out of 6 chambers in a revolver that are empty are you going to advise someone they play Russian Roulette?
     
  4. JEFFREH

    JEFFREH Administrator

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  5. Venzor

    Venzor New Member

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    My advice stressed (at least I thought it did) knowing your snakes. Sorry if it was vague. Also, in general, corn snakes are not aggressive to each other, even in the wild. Many times when there is a mishap, it is purely accidental.

    I have raised many animals - social, indifferent, and anti-social - and can tell you, that corn snakes are not anti-social. They fall into the indifferent category.

    This is not an appropriate analogy. By your logic, the same reasoning can be applied to taking a walk down the street. There is a chance lightning could strike you, you could get mugged, or get run over by a car. Would you still go for that walk?

    Of course there are oddities with certain corn snakes. That's nature. As I said before, every snake (and animal, for that matter), has his or her own personality. It is not rational to make judgments based off of a minority of occurrences. Here's an example: At this time, I also care for pet mice (note "pet", I do not use them as a food factory), which are very social animals. I have had to separate a couple mice from the main group due to bloody disagreements between cage mates. This does not mean that all mice are supposed to be caged separately.

    Both sides have valid standpoints. Someone has a reason for wanting to house corn snakes together. Is it generally safe? Yes. Is it necessary? No. Is there a *chance* of problems? Of course! But it's a very low chance if the right precautions are taken.

    If you want me to go out on a limb, I can even say that there's a chance one corn snake can eat the other when they are caged separately. We all know corns are excellent escape artists. Who's to say that by *chance* one corn can't enter the others tank and consume him/her? Following this logic, it's arguable that you shouldn't even own a second corn snake!

    Now, while that was incredibly far-fetched, there's a point to it. There's a chance for virtually every conceivable option to happen. What you, as an owner, need to decide, is how much chance you can tolerate. I have assured, and will assure some more, that under the right provisions, there is an incredibly low chance that there will be any kind of social conflict presented when housing multiple corn snakes together.

    Sorry if I sound too reiterative, but I am trying to present my logic so that everyone can understand it.

    EDIT: Fixed typo
     
  6. JEFFREH

    JEFFREH Administrator

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  7. wideglide

    wideglide Well-Known Member

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    I can understand where you're coming from but I think to a certain extent it is appropriate. We have the choice if we want to walk down the street and take those chances. If I'm standing next to someone who I think may hurt me I can very easily take my behind somewhere else. We are forcing these risks on the snakes whether they like it or not. Along those lines try to remember back when you were in grade school. Was there a class bully? Don't you think there were kids who were afraid of that class bully but no one noticed? Maybe the bully never outright beat up on anyone but only intimidated them. Force this bully and one of the kids to live together in a small room and what kind of life do you think that kid's gonna have?

    The fact is that we are forcing these animals to live the way we provide. Granted I do not know what percentage of corns being housed together have had problems but I do know I've read many places it's best not to have two snakes in the same enclosure because of personal experiences people have had and I really don't think it took very long for someone here to speak up with first hand experience.

    Venzor, I believe the last statement you made explained your position well but I think it's important to note it is pretty difficult to setup an enclosure with two of everything like hides, heat spots, water bowls, etc and have those spots be equal in temperature, humidity, air flow, etc. It has been stated many times that a snake will seek out the most appropriate spot with regards to temps, etc and if two snakes are in the same spot it is most likely because it is the best spot to be in, not because they are cuddling up to one another. I don't disagree with your logic but I do think to expect someone to be able to make that happen is somewhat optimistic. I also think most of the time we're talking small enclosures which would make it that much more difficult.

    Taking that into consideration I agree with Ed_r's advice to a poster who asks if it's alright to keep two corns in one enclosure. I mean what percentage of people who come here and ask that type of question are going to have the experience necessary to provide the things you state are needed to successfully house two corns? I'm willing to bet it's a pretty small percentage.
     
  8. JEFFREH

    JEFFREH Administrator

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  9. Venzor

    Venzor New Member

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    To start off with, I constantly stress proper conditions. I think it is not fair for us to judge how experienced the topic starter is, and give him only one side of an explanation. Also, he is not the only one reading this thread.
    That is where you must know your snake. There's one thing I haven't mentioned yet, and that is if you are going to attempt anything like this, you need to keep a close eye on your snakes for the first week or so. Do not house an aggressive/untamed corn snake with any other corn snake to avoid any conflict.

    It is doable. It is not something done simply and without much effort. It's a must that you understand each of your snakes' individual needs, and are sure that you can provide necessary care for those needs.

    Since I have pretty much said all I can, I will close with this: Housing corn snakes together is not a novice task. It can be done, but not easily. It is far more economic (in a normal situation) to house them separately, and that will also reduce any chance of social problems monumentally. Your best bet, as an average Joe just keeping a couple snakes, is to house them separately.
     
  10. JEFFREH

    JEFFREH Administrator

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  11. Ed_r

    Ed_r Member

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    Venzor while I see and understand where your coming from in saying you have to KNOW your snake, while this is true. BUT (you know theres always a but) Your dealing with an animal. Snakes are not domesticated like dogs and cats (which by the way still fight amongst themselves)

    There is no way its possible for us as humans to think as a simple minded snake (though I've run into many humans of similar intelligence level) No one has the ability to know what they are thinking.

    Perfect example My male Boa id the friendliest snake I hafve ever encountered, I let him out, I let him be handled by small children (with supervision) He's to a point where I wouldn't think twice about thinking he would bite anyone (but i still err to the side of caution) I had him outside at a picnic since all the kids love to pet him and later that afternoon, he did the unthinkable, he bit me real good on the arm. The one snake i trust more than the 20 others in my house bit me. (luckily not a child) But about a minute later we all smelled a skunk in the area, he probably smelled it first and wanted to get out.

    Moral of the story is you just don't know. No Matter How well you THINK you know your snake.
     
  12. Venzor

    Venzor New Member

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    Exactly. You said it yourself, we cannot understand any animal to a perfect extent. Just when you think you know them, they surprise you. Housing corn snakes together is as risky as housing many other pets together. In general it's safe, but there are always exceptions. Pit bulls and rottweilers(sp), for example, are stereotyped as mean, vicious dogs. Anyone with half of a brain know that they can also be very calm and "civilized".

    What I am getting at is the chance you're willing to take. Never let your guard down, as you are playing with the lives of living animals. This applies to ALL pets, not just corn snakes. It is no less risky to cohabitate cats as it is to cohabitate corn snakes.

    It all comes down to how much you trust yourself and your snakes. How much risk/chance can you tolerate?

    But above all, we all can agree on one thing: You're in control of your pets' lives; control them responsibly.

    Ed_r and Rob, I agree with and understand your points. The way to reduce the chance of problems the most is to house corn snakes separately. Like I said, though, certain people have their own reasons to house corn snakes together. It is not dangerous/stressful in any way as long as the snakes stay indifferent to eachother. There are a lot of things you can do for your snakes so that they remain at status quo (most, if not all, are listed in previous posts).

    I can list many reasons to house corn snakes separately, but what I am doing here is to show that it is not the only option. As far as ultimate safety, health, and happiness goes, corn snakes should be housed separately. But they can still be housed together with minimal chance of problems.
     
  13. natashaccollins

    natashaccollins Member

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    This is turing into a rather debatable topic. Everyone has made excellent points, but going back to what wideglide said
    'The fact is that we are forcing these animals to live the way we provide. Granted I do not know what percentage of corns being housed together have had problems but I do know I've read many places it's best not to have two snakes in the same enclosure because of personal experiences people have had and I really don't think it took very long for someone here to speak up with first hand experience.'
    I don't believe that the percentage is actually that high as everyone and pet store I know house most of their snakes in pairs or more and have not had any prolems. The reason why I had a problem for was because one of my corns was owned by someone that had gone to uni and had not been handled in over a year before this boys father decided to get rid of her. So she was used to being alone. I was unaware of this though as she was very happy to be with my other snakes for the first 8 weeks until she turned. I called the man that I got her from and he then told me the whole story. But beacuse of that I had to then have all my corns in their own viv until it came to breeding season and they where all very happy to go together and they let me know when it was time to put them in their own tanks.
    So at the end of the day it is upto the individual what they feel is best and how they think their snake will react to having a roommate in with them.
     
  14. wideglide

    wideglide Well-Known Member

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    This is where I think it comes down to the individual and what they believe in and how much experience they have. Do they feel like they should provide the ultimate safety, health and happiness or do they think it's alright to cut corners to satisfy their own curiosity & interest? Or do they feel they have enough experience that if they do cut corners they will be able to recognize the sometimes subtle signs that indicate there is a problem?

    I'm sorry but I really don't follow what you're saying here.

    I know this was a few posts earlier but I meant to reply a while back and forgot. First off I would not call it judging I would call it being intuitive and trying to look out for the best interest of the animal. I think when giving any advice it is important to keep in mind there are a lot of people reading it including those who have little to no experience. I think advice given based on this is the safest kind of advice and has the best potential to provide the ultimate safety, health and happiness for the animal, which is what I believe we should provide.
     
  15. stormyva

    stormyva Well-Known Member

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    Just to drop in my .02 again........
    Snakes should always be housed separately.... it is our responsibilty to give the animals in our collections the best possible conditions. That means optimum lighting, heating, food, substrate, and housing conditions. It is impossible to argue the fact that the absolute best and safest means of housing a snake is by itself. In doing so there is no risk of cross contamination of illness, bites, and stress from competition for a hide spot. Further, a snake housed by itself is one that can be accurately tracked for sheds and other bodily functions. It's the same as feeding live prey and feeding on loose substrate..... it may be possible to do it but it's not the best for the snake. There is still a very, very strong chance that something is going to happen to the snake.
     
  16. natashaccollins

    natashaccollins Member

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    285
    Sorry, What I was trying to say was it was beacuse of this snake that I had to put all my snakes in their own viv. Before I had her my other snakes were very happy together. But once she was in there and then turned all the others went on their gaurd with eachother so I had to give them their own housing. Does that make more sense or did I just make things worse?!
     
  17. wideglide

    wideglide Well-Known Member

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    4,350
    I gotcha now. I just wasn't connecting that the one snake made all of the others turn against each other. Honestly I have to wonder if there wasn't some other things contributing to the problem other than the background of just one snake and if it wouldn't have happened regardless of if the new snake were there or not. Maybe, it's just a thought.

    BTW, thanks for clearing that up for me!!
     
  18. mickeydee1984

    mickeydee1984 Embryo

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    most people just dont keep their snakes together...accidents happen,
    snakes are not social animals....zoos and reptile breeders and sellers
    keep them seperated for a reason....it will be a great thing if you never have to find out that reason with yours all together...:)
     
  19. susyq

    susyq Member

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    507
    i usually house all my reptiles individually, except for 2 female corns that had been housed together by the breeder i bought them off, as i did not see the point in changing how they had been housed before incase it caused them to get stressed. they came as a proven breeding trio with a male who had always been housed seperate. :)
     
  20. Lexxicos

    Lexxicos New Member

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    In response to this subject, I will say a quote I read off of the Kingsnake Corn Forums:

    Question: "Does my snake want a friend?"

    Answer: "Yes, your snake does want a friend. It also wants new shoes, a TV, and a Cell Phone."

    My alignment is with Stormy on this one. While it is possible to house 2 snakes together, it is not the best. It won't stress them out by separating them, so feel free. There's no harm in housing them alone. Granted, they probably don't really (strictly in the sense of what snakes are like) care. I, for one, have never actually seen my snake "Basking" like a Bearded Dragon or Turtle, he usually just hangs out over the UTH when he wants to be warm. The point is that while housing them together may cause a minimal amount of stress even if there are enough hides and *Cough*Basking*Cough* spots, and it is harder for you to keep track of their health.
     

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